Perhaps I, and others, should try and take your post as an example of how to
communicate "properly."
I gather you didn't read Rebeka's post in which she attacked me, taking my
words out of context.
I sincerely hope that people on this list are not going to continue to
attack me, leaving me in the position of choosing not to respond, leaving
your comments, as it were, unchallenged, or, choosing to make a response and
risk the wrath of the moderators and other lists members for taking up their
valuable time ?
So, please, no more of this .
Sue McPherson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Louise Goodbody" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: expectations
> Dear Sue
>
> I am really fed up with the way you interact with others on the list.
> I experience your contributions as interesting, useful and different at
> times, but often attacking in the way you communicate your views,
> knowledge and perspective, your recent posting to Rebekah being an
> example. I then find it hard to be open to thinking about the points
> you make.
>
> I don't know you, you don't know me and I don't know Rebekah either.
> I am sorry that this is the first way I have participated in the list
> and I may be breaching rules, expectations and principles, but I don't
> feel I can be a by-stander any longer without letting you know the
> impact you have on me.
>
> Obviously it's up to you how/if you respond in the public space of the
> list , and I'll try to take responsibility for the impact of my posting
> on list members, yourself included. It's not easy to put relational
> responsibility principles into practice by email - but it is a
> multi-way process between us all, between posters, responders and
> readers.
>
> Louise Goodbody
>
>
> On Thu, 13 Jul 2006 11:36:28 +0100 Sue McPherson
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > Rebekah,
> >
> > Since you are one who jumped on me for saying a truth - that we live in
the UK and not in Bangladesh - and saw that as problematic, I would like to
know just how you intend to try and determine who is being racist, or
sexist, etc, and how to decide what should be considered racist and what
not.
> >
> > I wonder about racism, as it understood in this country, because I
rarely see any in-depth discussion of it. Even the murder of young Anthony
Walker, fairly recently, was seen to be a result of "the colour of his skin"
and not possibly anything to do with his having a white girlfriend, who, as
it happens, was with him that night. The dynamics are different this side of
the Atlantic, that's for sure, but it still strikes me as odd that that was
never mentioned, though in North America, interracial relationships
(personal and social) have been seen as being complex and worthy of
discussion.
> >
> > I came over to this country with the expectation that there would be a
way for me to contribute from what I know, and learn from others. I'm on
this list for the same reason.
> >
> > Sue McPherson
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Rebekah Pratt" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Thursday, July 13, 2006 10:01 AM
> > Subject: Re: expectations
> >
> >
> > > It is very interesting reading what our different expectations are and
they
> > > way those match nicely, or have bits of friction too! All good Comm
Psych
> > > stuff isn't it. I guess I wanted to chip in a little on this idea of
being
> > > open to different perspectives. There are two community psychology
values
> > > that jump out for me here, one being 'diversity' and the other being
'social
> > > justice'. One of the things I'd like to discuss more is the tension
between
> > > celebrating diversity through being open to different perspectives,
and the
> > > value of social justice. So, if someone offers a perspective that is
> > > oppressive, eg. Racist, sexist, homophobic/heterosexist ... How do I
> > > reconcile that respect of other perspectives alongside the values of
social
> > > justice. This is sort of an easy example, as the answer is fairly
clear,
> > > but what happens when the perspective is more subtly oppressive, maybe
> > > individualism could be an example - which value matters most about
what I
> > > say/do/reflect on next? I'd like as a community psychologist for us
to also
> > > think about those tensions too, and how that debate might lead to
times when
> > > we don't offer equal value to all perspectives.
> > > Another expectation I wanted to add in, is I think we could give some
> > > attention to how we can offer critical exchanges without them being
personal
> > > exchanges, how we can disagree and challenge whilst still building the
> > > discussion and relationships we have on the list. I sometimes wonder
if it
> > > is possible to have critical exchanges with people when we are really
> > > communicating with a big group where we don't know much about each
other.
> > > Are there ways we can develop a collective expectation around having
safe
> > > and constructive critical debate?
> > > Rebekah
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
> > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Alex Hamlin
> > > Sent: 13 July 2006 08:52
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] expectations
> > >
> > > Thanks Annie,
> > >
> > > You have summarised exactly what I wanted to say!
> > >
> > > I have recently joined the list serve and have found some of the
discussions
> > > very useful - particularly those that have directed readers to useful
> > > articles and books, and those that have offered thoughtful reflections
on
> > > current movements in psychology. However, I have felt disappointed in
the
> > > amount of e-mails that have come through that don't seem to reflect
what I
> > > understood to be central value of community psychology; that is an
openness
> > > to different perspectives. I know community psychology is a developing
> > > 'discipline' and as such will inevitably go through a period of
defining
> > > what it is and what it is not. But I hope this can happen in an open
and
> > > inclusive way without any
> > > individuals feeling rejected and personally criticised. What I like
> > > best about community psychology is the stance that everyone has equal
value
> > > and that professional status is not necessary for community psychology
> > > practice. Please let's not become 'precious' about 'our patch'.
> > >
> > > Despite having said that I very much enjoy being part of the serve for
all
> > > those positive contributions that are made! I look forward to
continuing to
> > > learn more about what the rest of you are doing and thinking about.
> > >
> > > Alex Hamlin
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
> > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Annie Mitchell
> > > Sent: 13 July 2006 01:18
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: expectations
> > >
> > > Dear All,
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear all,
> > >
> > >
> > > The contributions I especially appreciate are when someone sends out a
> > > question and others are generous with thoughtul replies; when people
send
> > > links or information about resources; when people send descriptions of
work
> > > that they have done (in any field where there are potential lessons
for
> > > undertanding and practice of community psychology broadly defined);
where
> > > people offer thoughtful and inclusive reflections; and contributions
that
> > > make me think and question my own assumptions.
> > > The contributions that make me think maybe I want to leave the list
are
> > > those when we seem to be getting close to personal insults, individual
> > > domination of the list or professional/personal competitiveness .
There is
> > > more of that than I expected when i joined the list. But I value
being able
> > > to stick with it and trying to process differences and disagreements.
> > >
> > > Annie
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List on behalf of David
Fryer
> > > Sent: Wed 12/07/2006 16:03
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: expectations
> > >
> > > This seems another opportunity to articulate another expectation about
this
> > > list.
> > >
> > > I expect this to be a list on which discussion takes place about
community
> > > psychology. I do not expect it to be a discussion list about clinical
> > > psychology, a discussion list about health service provision, a
discussion
> > > list upon which one offers and discloses anguish and receives
counselling, a
> > > discussion list upon which one ventilates one's anger at life's
injustices
> > > as one sees them, a discussion lists on which one socialises etc.,
except
> > > insofar as that is unavoidable in discussion community psychology. If
I
> > > expected to discuss those other matters I would join or start up
different
> > > lists.
> > >
> > > Because community psychology is not just a body of knowledge claims
but a
> > > set of practices underpinned by a set of powerfully held values, I
expect a
> > > community psychology discussion list to not only be about community
> > > psychology but to embody community psychology values and its processes
to be
> > > consistent with those values.
> > >
> > > I regard community psychology as, crucially, a critical approach. Much
of
> > > what gets offered as community psychology seems to me to be as
problematic
> > > as psychology in general.
> > >
> > > I do not think critical scrutiny of either psychology in general or
critical
> > > community psychology in particular can be overdone and I do not see
> > > reflexive critical scrutiny of our own ideas, practices etc as a
diversion
> > > from action but as an essential component of critical psychology
action
> > > (praxis). I regard it as essential that we constantly question whether
what
> > > community psychologists are collectively engaged in is making things
worse
> > > rather than better. Foucault and other writers have given us no excuse
to be
> > > ignorant or naive as to how problematic and complicit a discipline
> > > psychology in its various guises is.
> > >
> > > I agree that we have common struggles - one of those common struggles
is to
> > > be aware of, avoid collusion with or contest an ideologically and
> > > practically problematic discipline which promotes the interests of the
most
> > > powerful and works against the interests of the least powerful,
irrespective
> > > of the intentions of many of those enacting it.
> > >
> > > So, whilst I also have other expectations too and I also accept the
right of
> > > other people posting to this list to have other expectations and I am
here
> > > just making my own expectations clear, one of my expectations of this
list
> > > is that it is a forum for discussion about, and embodying, critical
> > > community psychology.
> > >
> > > Regarding time . . . personally, I do not contribute to this list
relatively
> > > often because I have too much time on my hands but because there is so
much
> > > injustice and misery and so little time to contest it.
> > > Because of that time pressure, another expectation I have of this list
is
> > > that we do not waste each others' time with matters which are really
nothing
> > > to do with tackling injustice and misery through critical community
> > > psychology
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > > David Fryer
> > > Community Psychology Group
> > > University of Stirling
> > > FK9 4LA
> > > Scotland
> > > +44 (0) 1786 467650 (tel)
> > > +44 (0) 1786 467641 (fax)
> > > [log in to unmask]
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: The UK Community Psychology Discussion List
> > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Franks, Wendy -
> > > Clinical Psychologist
> > > Sent: 12 July 2006 1:23 pm
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] what do WHICH people want?
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I've only just had time to skim some of the arguments in this
> > > thread, but was aware that Michael's comment below struck me as
important,
> > > and that it also seemed to get lost in the discussion.
> > >
> > > As someone who has the privilege of earning a living from working
> > > with people, and (for now) seem to have a lot of choice in how I do
that, I
> > > try to focus my energies to work in ways that at least attend to
social
> > > inequalities and how they relate to people's health. I'm aware that
trying
> > > to maintain a critical perspective on many of the dilemmas I encounter
in
> > > this work (and that are being discussed on this list in a lot more
detail
> > > than I feel I have time to fully engage in) leave me feeling uncertain
and
> > > ineffective, as well as sometimes exhausted, anxious and even a little
> > > defensive about what I'm doing. I'm aware that I do not often feel as
> > > powerful as I am sometimes imagined to be because of my relatively
> > > priviliged position, which sometimes adds to my experience of
responsibility
> > > without much real power.
> > >
> > > I really appreciated the inclusiveness of Michael's post, and the
> > > recognition of our common struggles and needs, as well as our
differences.
> > >
> > > Wendy
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Michael Swindlehurst
> > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > > Sent: 06 July 2006 19:53
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] what do WHICH people want?
> > >
> > >
> > > As a service user and carer research participant for many
> > > years now, I can appreciate a little of what Sue, Petra and David are
> > > debating here and, such sensible considerations have led to great
> > > improvements in research methods and attitudes in recent years from
the
> > > service user participants point of view - enabling much common
progress.
> > > However, I cannot help but feel you are also dissipating your energies
> > > further by trying to achieve the opposite. You are members of the
community
> > > as vulnerable as the rest of us and it is not so much our uniqueness
which
> > > matters, but the greater things we all have in common.
> > > In this, are the answers to what we all really and unifyingly need
and,
> > > perhaps, such academic considerations can be over-done and divert us
from
> > > the objective?
> > >
> > > Mike S
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Petra Boynton
> > > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Sent: Thursday, July 06, 2006 5:45 PM
> > > Subject: Re: what do WHICH people want?
> > >
> > > Again I agree in part with David, but I think we
> > > also have to be careful not to make too many assumptions about
research.
> > > David's account presents research as something led by researchers
whose
> > > voices are heard and whose study designs/contacts are priviledged.
That is
> > > common practice and may well lead to the 'usual suspects' or dominant
groups
> > > being studied or even over researched, as well as work being completed
that
> > > isn't necessarily supportive or reflective of communities.
> > >
> > > However the study I linked to was developed entirely
> > > within a community by community members. That community does have a
very
> > > strong network which could easily inform links to others.
> > > So it would be community members rather than researchers/practitioners
who
> > > would be providing introductions and links. Whilst I accept that
could lead
> > > to the 'usual suspects' being studied, in this case I'd say it would
expand
> > > the range of people being spoken to, and also empowers a community
group who
> > > were brave enough to challenge research ideas and suggest they had a
voice
> > > and something to say. It would be a shame that our belief that
research is
> > > always entirely dominated by academics and researchers might lead to
> > > projects actively organised by communities being excluded or
overlooked.
> > >
> > > Whilst we rightly should focus on the needs of
> > > communities we are working with, being critical also means focusing on
who
> > > is doing the work within research. All too often it's junior female
staff
> > > who're set the task of identifying participants, where lots of time is
put
> > > in but few contacts are made because the researcher doesn't know the
> > > area/community or is unable without help and introductions to
respectfully
> > > and appropriately liase with a community. This does lead to wasted
time,
> > > effort and money - which isn't just a problem for researchers, it's a
> > > problem for everyone involved. And it leads to junior staff feeling
> > > disempowered and distressed. So whilst I agree it's a great idea to
look
> > > critically at work, if we're not empowering and training our staff to
do
> > > this (and most staff aren't given this
> > > opportunity) then we will continue to see research that isn't
empowering
> > > anyone.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > At 16:56 06/07/2006, you wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > I agree with Sue here.
> > >
> > > I believe that 'saving time' and
> > > avoiding 'cash' being 'wasted' by identifying 'participants',
'community
> > > leads' and 'existing networks' by going via existing researchers' and
of
> > > existing projects often leads to the rounding up of the 'usual
suspects'
> > > and the privileging of the same old voices (and silencing of others).
> > > These concerns were not reduced by reading Phyl's post where a 'wide
range
> > > of statutory and voluntary bodies' on a steering group are proposed as
a
> > > filter / access route for proposed research.. I also note, in terms of
whose
> > > interests are paramount, that prioritising the saving time and money
is to
> > > privilege the interests of researchers and funders, rather than those
of
> > > community members. Moreover, I don't see 'focusing on other projects .
. .
> > > as a diversion' so much as a perversion. It is important, in my view,
to see
> > > the social world and its problems through the eyes of community
members, not
> > > through the eyes of those who make their living studying or providing
> > > services for community members and it is particularly important to
privilege
> > > community members' interests in the defining of what is problematic
and how
> > > it will be tackled rather than those of service providers and other
> > > researchers.
> > >
> > > Admittedly, some communities are
> > > over-researched and their members are at risk of research fatigue,
sometimes
> > > research based on secondary sources is good enough and it is pointless
to
> > > reinvent the wheel again and again so there are occasionally arguments
for
> > > refraining from doing more research and for working with what research
has
> > > already been done. However it is, in my view, extremely rare that one
comes
> > > across research and projects which are genuinely critical community
> > > psychological in values and assumptions and research based on
secondary
> > > analysis of non critical community psychology work is, hopefully,
flawed as
> > > far as members of this list are concerned. On the other hand,
secondary
> > > research (carried out from a critical community psychology
perspective) into
> > > pre-existing research (carried out from a non critical community
psychology
> > > perspective) could be of great interest in exposing the role of much
> > > community based research in serving the interests of the powerful or,
more
> > > precisely, enacting the micropolitics which accomplish the
macropolitical
> > > agenda of the status quo.
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > > David Fryer
> > > Community Psychology Group
> > > University of Stirling
> > > FK9 4LA
> > > Scotland
> > > +44 (0) 1786 467650 (tel)
> > > +44 (0) 1786 467641 (fax)
> > > [log in to unmask]
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > >
> > > From: The UK Community Psychology
> > > Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Sue
> > > McPherson
> > >
> > > Sent: 06 July 2006 12:54 pm
> > >
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > >
> > > Subject: Re: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] what do
> > > WHICH people want?
> > >
> > >
> > > I find Petra's views a bit problematic,
> > > likewise the comment given by Michelle Lee, about a project she was
involved
> > > in, to "empower the Bangladeshi Community to reach their people in an
> > > appropriate manner."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Obviously, there are different levels at
> > > which one can intervene, and while already existing networks can be
useful,
> > > there's a difference between using them to identify key members in the
> > > community (see above and below) and seeking out members of the
community
> > > who wouldn't otherwise have a voice. Of course talking to community
> > > representatives would be important, but I don't see it "wasting time"
to
> > > seek out untapped resources - people living in the community who are
not
> > > already biased in their views. Most people are only too glad to
volunteer to
> > > talk if notices are put up requesting their assistance. I guess the
funding
> > > referred to below can quickly be used up in the time taken (and having
to be
> > > paid for) for putting up such notices, making contact, setting up
> > > interviews, and seeking permission from ethics committees), but I
imagine
> > > the purpose of the study would indicate which way to go - getting in
at
> > > ground level or midway up. and of course, whether divisions between
> > > different cultures will be emphasised or only dealt with when
necessary.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sue McPherson
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > >
> > > From: Petra Boynton
> > > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > >
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > >
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 1:24 PM
> > >
> > > Subject: Re: what do WHICH people want?
> > >
> > >
> > > I agree with David up to a point.
> > > Whilst focusing on other projects could act as a diversion, given the
> > > diverse needs of the community in Tower Hamlets and that existing
> > > researchers have worked effectively and respectfully within that
community
> > > networking with them could at least identify ways of effective working
and
> > > save time trying to identify participants and key community leads.
Whilst
> > > the PCT's funded you cash can often be wasted trying to find people to
be
> > > involved in programmes where networks already exist (and you can
always step
> > > outside those if you need to).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > At 12:43 05/07/2006, you wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Deborah,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > If I were you I would not start by
> > > seeing what other researchers have done and, especially, I would not
start
> > > by looking for another study done elsewhere which could act as a guide
or
> > > template as to what you should do and how you should do it. If you
came
> > > across such a study I would put it on one side until you have done
your own
> > > work so it does not affect how you work.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I note that in your account the impetus for
> > > the research comes not from the community but from health visitors and
> > > district nurses rather than from residents in Tower Hamlets. In whose
> > > interests is the proposed research being done, really? Who is powerful
in
> > > deciding who is studied, what questions are asked etc?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > If I were you I would find ways to be useful
> > > in very practical ways to people in Tower hamlets and gradually earn
the
> > > right to be trusted. I would find out the questions that people in
Tower
> > > Hamlets want answered and I would seek for ways to support them in
getting
> > > answers.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > In so far as you do read in advance I would
> > > suggest this should be to problemetise the project in which you are
engaged:
> > > I would suggest the following reading as priority reading in that
regard:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Ian Parker (2005) Qualitative
> > > Psychology: Introducing Radical Research, Buckingham: Open University
> > > Press. isbn: 0-335-21349-9
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Linda Tuhiwai Smith (1999) Decolonizing
> > > Methodologies: Research and Indigenous Peoples Zed Books isbn
> > > 1856496244
> > >
> > >
> > > Derek Hook (ed.), with Mkhize, N.
> > > Kiguwa, P. and Collins, A. (section eds) and Burman, E. and Parker, I.
> > > (consulting eds) Critical Psychology2004, Cape Town: UCT Press. isbn:
> > > 1-91971-388-3
> > >
> > >
> > > David
> > >
> > > David Fryer
> > >
> > > Community Psychology Group
> > >
> > > University of Stirling
> > >
> > > FK9 4LA
> > >
> > > Scotland
> > >
> > > +44 (0) 1786 467650 (tel)
> > >
> > > +44 (0) 1786 467641 (fax)
> > >
> > > [log in to unmask]
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: The UK Community Psychology
> > > Discussion List [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> > > Deborah Chinn
> > > Sent: 04 July 2006 10:44 pm
> > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject: [COMMUNITYPSYCHUK] what do
> > > people want?
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear All
> > >
> > > We (some PCT psychologists) have got some
> > > funding to find out from people in Tower Hamlets in the East End of
London
> > > what they think are the important things that impact on their health
and
> > > wellbeing, and conversely, what might get in the way of good physical
and
> > > mental health. The starting point for this study were worries from
primary
> > > health staff, mainly health visitors and district nurses, that there
were
> > > quite a few people who didn't find seem to find health professionals'
> > > current approaches or interventions very helpful.
> > > We are going to have to think carefully about issues of race/culture
in the
> > > design and focus of the study, as Tower Hamlets is a very ethnically
diverse
> > > borough with 30% of the population identified as Bangladeshi.
> > >
> > > Does anyone know of any similar work, or
> > > maybe someone has conducted a similar study? Any ideas or suggestions
would
> > > be gratefully received.
> > >
> > > Many thanks
> > > Deborah Chinn
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___________________________________
> > > COMMUNITYPSYCHUK - The discussion list for community psychology in the
UK.
> > > To unsubscribe or to change your details visit the website:
> > > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/COMMUNITYPSYCHUK.HTML For any problems
or
> > > queries, contact the list moderator at [log in to unmask] or
> > > [log in to unmask]
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > >
> > > The University of Stirling is a
> > > university established in Scotland by charter at Stirling, FK9 4LA.
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