Mark,

I am interested to know where your certainty and self-assurance comes from.
I see so many weaknesses in arguements based on
statistics/paradigms/theoretical frameworks it is hard to know where to
begin...  You have had experience as a therapist - that much is obvious.  My
experiences, observations and academic study (the latter is the least
important I think) of 'psychology professionals' suggests professions based
on self-sustainment and collegial reinforcement of their professional
expertise.  I'm sure you are aware that the number of definitions for mental
disorders has increased at an exponential rate in the last century - in line
with the increased numbers of professionals able to diagnose/treat them,
perhaps.

As Alison has said 'our brains are complex to the point of complete mystery'
but it is in the interests of psychologists et al to define mental
conditions and treat them.  When their ability to 'treat' is exhausted it is
then in the interests of everyone to have the individual in question
withdrawn from society - they become really bloody embarrassing to everyone
concerned.  I have recently witnessed the treatment of a neighbour who has
some very apparent problems.  Her behaviour is erratic and quite disturbing
(possibly something to do with being repeatedly raped as a child by her
father and uncles but I wouldn't want to make any irrational assumptions
here).  Her treatment seems to consist of medication that puts her into an
ever more dazed and confused state (a docile/non-threatening state?)  When
she becomes very agitated she tends to make daily trips to her doctor.
Confinement and bouts of electro-shock usually follow until she is calm
enough to be released.  This has gone on for about 18 months now and my
strong suspicion is that her partner (now with a drink problem) and her
doctor are getting ever more hopeful that she will kill herself and put them
out of their misery.  Of course when/if she does I'm sure that all concerned
will be able to say that nothing could be done.

There are approaches to mental health problems that are not about
maintaining the status quo or maintaining the power of professionals.
Narrative Therapy for instance offers the potential for genuine engagement
with an individual (or a family) and possiblities for separating the person
from any problems.  As it focusses on story-telling, results are not easily
quantified and are therefore easily dismissed by many.

Incidentally, were your patients ever present at meetings when they were
being discussed?

Tina


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Weiss" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, April 01, 2006 1:00 AM
Subject: Re: Feminism: an aside


> OK, I accept that there may be a factual basis for your explanation,
> but it's a very small foundation for a rather baroque edifice.
> Occam's razor, please.
>
> A little more about suicide. It's common for therapy patients to
> express moments of suicidal ideation that may be more serious than
> the everyday ho hum I think I'll kill myself. In the US, at least in
> the jurisdictions I know about, patient confidentiality ends the
> moment the therapist is convinced that a patient is seriously a
> danger to him/herself or others, at which point the therapist is
> required by law to report to the police, which leads to involuntary
> committment. Obviously committment has consequences, and you can't
> commit everyone. So what to do? Here's a comon assessment test: you
> make a deal with the patient that she/he won't commit suicide until
> after the next session. Believe it or not, it works. Which doesn't
> mean that the therapist gets much sleep during the intervening nights.
>
> For the record, I dealt professionally with dozens of suicidal
> patients, and in mental health outpatient clinics where I worked
> there were hundreds each year, all of which got discussed in clinical
> meetings by clinicians from every imaginable theoretical background.
> I can't remember a single case that fit the paradigm you described,
> and I can't remember any clinician attempting to fit a patient into
> that paradigm.
>
> Mark
>
>
> At 07:46 PM 3/31/2006, you wrote:
> >On 1/4/06 9:39 AM, "Mark Weiss" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > > A much more modest set of claims, Alison
> >
> >Hmm. Seems to me that I am saying exactly the same thing (that there are
> >definite links between high male suicide rates and traditional
constructions
> >of masculinity), but explaining why I think the things I do. Scepticism
is
> >welcome of course, but I actually have real reasons for most of the
things I
> >say.
> >
> >But you can't write a book every time you make an assertion in an email
> >discussion. Yes, take the complexity of human behaviour as read; it
> >underlies everything I say as an implicit or explicit caveat. Our brains
are
> >complex to the point of complete mystery. Me, I'm having a shower.
> >
> >All best
> >
> >A
> >
> >
> >Alison Croggon
> >
> >Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com
> >Editor, Masthead:  http://masthead.net.au
> >Home page: http://alisoncroggon.com
>