Jeez, I haven't looked at his work in a generation. To be clear, Bly 
is more or less on my side of the line in US poetry, and a terrible 
embarrassment. Ammons is of the other side--Ron Silliman calls it The 
School of Quietude, which is not far off. I'd also call it the school 
of cleanliness.

This has to be mysterious to most people from other places. It's not 
mysterious to "the other side," usually, because they're scarcely 
aware of the existence of this side of the line.

Boy, could this get way more complicated than I have time for!

A shortcut: the poets I identify with as peers Jack Spicer is 
central. He's not even mentioned in most writing programs or the 
anthologies generated for them, and more than once I've been told, "Jack who?"

Mark




At 08:06 PM 3/28/2006, you wrote:
>Please don't get me wrong - I'm not comparing them, simply stating 
>what came to mind. Nor defending Bly - simply curious as to why his 
>name occurred in conjunction with some pretty harsh words. Perhaps I 
>will understand better now. And Ammons?
>
>Cal
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry and
>poetics [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Mark Weiss
>Sent: Wednesday, 29 March 2006 12:03 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: A serious query, was Re: PS. Re: Help! The grass is singing
>
>
>Context: we tend to trust Orwell--he earned it. Bly gave us Iron John
>and tarts around in a cape.
>
>But seriously, it's a very inapt comparison. Bly writes to declare
>himself better than an oil company, and seems incapable of
>self-examination. Orwell reports the event as an instance in
>complicity and a lesson, to himself as to the reader, in the workings
>of empire.
>
>Mark
>
>At 07:38 PM 3/28/2006, you wrote:
> >Which puts me straight in mind of Orwell's "Shooting an elephant" -
> >one of the greatest essays I've ever read...
> >
> >Cal
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry and
> >poetics [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Mark Weiss
> >Sent: Wednesday, 29 March 2006 11:33 AM
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Re: A serious query, was Re: PS. Re: Help! The grass is singing
> >
> >
> >Roethke is still read, and some poets are passinate about him, but
> >he's no longer central to anyone's concerns as far as I know.
> >
> >I have no idea how anyone can fail to see Bly's consistent profound
> >self-serving and dishonesty. Years ago I heard him read what was one
> >of his signature poems, about coming upon a sea lion that was dying
> >of the effects of an oil spill. For seven days he came back to look
> >at the beast, describing its agony in excquisite detail. On his last
> >visit it was dead, and Bly had a Wordsworthian epiphany. Me, I was
> >thinking, why thre fuck didn't he get a gun and put the poor thing
> >out of its misery, or at least inform the ASPCA? Ah, but then he
> >wouldn't have got the poem. I'd contend that my question is
> >inevitable unless one wears blinders.
> >
> >Mark
> >
> >At 07:10 PM 3/28/2006, you wrote:
> > >Thanks Jill,
> > >
> > >I ask because as I read the works talked about by people here, I
> > >often find myself lost. Why has Roethke slipped away? Why do people
> > >so dislike Robert Bly? I tend to forget the poet and read the poem.
> > >To use a crass analogy, all sportspeople have an 'off' day. Some
> > >perform consistently, some in sporadic brilliance, some in an arc of
> > >sustained brilliance. It's all the same game though.
> > >
> > >Cal.
> > >
> > >-----Original Message-----
> > >From: Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry and
> > >poetics [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Jill Jones
> > >Sent: Wednesday, 29 March 2006 11:03 AM
> > >To: [log in to unmask]
> > >Subject: Re: A serious query, was Re: PS. Re: Help! The grass is singing
> > >
> > >
> > >Hi Caleb,
> > >
> > >I was getting at the kinds of poems that use big, sometimes
> > >lazy/obvious images,
> > >often as a grounding metaphor for the poem. A few years ago there
> > >seemed to be a
> > >lot of sequences in Australian that worked like that. I just didn't
> > >believe them
> > >in the way I was being asked to by the poem. And it all seemed overblown.
> > >
> > >BTW, I know that in this respect, I'm using 'Deep Image' a bit
> > >inaccurately but
> > >in the way it is used a bit inaccurately around here, in my experience.
> > >
> > >I don't have problems with images, as would be obvious. I work a lot
> > >with visual
> > >artists as well. And I'm no stranger to sequences.
> > >
> > >Cheers,
> > >Jill
> > >
> > >
> > >Quoting Caleb Cluff <[log in to unmask]>:
> > >
> > > >> Deep Image line (oh image is big big big for a lot of them)
> > > >
> > > > Could you clarify that for me a little Jill?
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > >
> > >
> > >
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