JiscMail Logo
Email discussion lists for the UK Education and Research communities

Help for MEDIEVAL-RELIGION Archives


MEDIEVAL-RELIGION Archives

MEDIEVAL-RELIGION Archives


MEDIEVAL-RELIGION@JISCMAIL.AC.UK


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

MEDIEVAL-RELIGION Home

MEDIEVAL-RELIGION Home

MEDIEVAL-RELIGION  February 2006

MEDIEVAL-RELIGION February 2006

Options

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password

Subject:

Re: beggars and saints' charity

From:

Christopher Crockett <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 14 Feb 2006 10:02:50 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (103 lines)

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

On Monday, February 13, 2006, at 3:26 pm, Jim Bugslag wrote:

> I have always assumed, on no real basis, that the reason that 
mendicant churches were located on the outer periphery of cities, or even
outside their walls, had a great deal to do with their 'competition' with
parochial and other ecclesiastical 
jurisdictions.  Can anyone either confirm or unconfirm this?


another factor --congruent to this-- might be that the "mendicant" orders'
brief was to service the poor; and the poorest sections of many cities were
those close to the walls (whether inside or out).

this was true in Gallo-Roman times (which is the reason why so many cathedrals
in the 12th-13th c. had to blast through the G-R walls in order to expand the
size of their buildings) when it was the Early Church which was largely a
Lower Class phenomenon.

as the Worm Turned and the Church became Triumphant, the area around the
cathedral became High Toned and Gentrified and, as the city expanded during
the course of the High M.A., the lower classes gravitated towards the (new)
walls and (for those even lower) outside them.

living near the walls had various disadvantages, not the least of which was
the fact that during a Siege houses near them might be deliberately pulled
down by the defenders to deny the besiegers an advantage (i know of one
instance of this happening in the 16th c., in a siege of the _castrum_ of
Auneau, near Chartres, a parish church next to the wall was desstroyed by the
defenders).


thinking of Chartres (just by accident), the Gallo-Roman city consisted of a
citadel up on the scarp overlooking the valley of the Eure (where the
cathedral is now and to the south and west, down the gently sloping terrain
leading into the southern Beauce).

there was a poor section of this part of the city (the site of the cathedral)
and even poorer sections beyond the citadel, down the hill and all along the
river.  (the city baths were near the site of the abbey of St. Peter's; the
ampitheater was built into the hillside in front of the present church of St.
André, near the river.)

by the 9th c., the "city" --having shrunk considerably in population-- was
pretty much confined to the area which now comprises the cathedral close
(North, South and West of the cathedral, there being a fairly precipitous
drop-off to the East).

the later 11th c. and the 12th were Boom Times, with the population growing to
such an extent that new city walls were called for in the 1170s or '80s (i
think it was) which enclosed the "suburbs" of _Bellovidere_ ("Beauvais", in
modren parlance) to the North of the cathedral, and to the West as far as the
little church of Ste. Foi and the Place des Epars.

and a bit more than a century later a final set of walls extended along the
river (which was actually split up into two pieces for defensive purposes),
the most formidable part of which survived into our own day as the famous
signature of the city, the "Porte Guillaume" --or, almost survived, save for
some major redecorating done by the Germans as they retreated from the city in
1944.

as late as 30 years ago the "Basse Ville" was still the working class part of
town, with seedy hotels and cafés, the kind of place which a respectable
mother in the "Haute Ville" or the Faubourgs would warn her daughter not to
enter.

all this has changed, of course, as the town has become thoroughly Boutiqued
(en haute) and Gentrified (en bas).


From: John Dillon <[log in to unmask]>

> The Neapolitan experience would not confirm this -- for Naples.  This 
may well be a situation where a generalization such as "mendicant 
churches were located on the outer periphery of cities" works much 
better for some cities than for others.


well, leave it to Dillon and the Eyetalians to put a nasty Kink in the nice,
smooth lines us Syntheticists manage, with so much diffiuclty and skill, to
draw through the randomly scattered dots on the graph.

did the Neopolitans at least get it right to the extent that the mendicants
were sited in the poorer sections of town, whether that/those quarter(s)
was/were "on the outer periphery" or not, John?

or did the Friars commute to work from more Tony UpTown digs?

c

**********************************************************************
To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
to: [log in to unmask]
To send a message to the list, address it to:
[log in to unmask]
To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
to: [log in to unmask]
In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
[log in to unmask]
For further information, visit our web site:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

JiscMail Tools


RSS Feeds and Sharing


Advanced Options


Archives

October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
December 2000
November 2000
October 2000
September 2000
August 2000
July 2000
June 2000
May 2000
April 2000
March 2000
February 2000
January 2000
December 1999
November 1999
October 1999
September 1999
August 1999
July 1999
June 1999
May 1999
April 1999
March 1999
February 1999
January 1999
December 1998
November 1998
October 1998
September 1998
August 1998
July 1998
June 1998
May 1998
April 1998
March 1998
February 1998
January 1998
December 1997
November 1997
October 1997
September 1997
August 1997
July 1997
June 1997
May 1997
April 1997
March 1997
February 1997
January 1997
December 1996
November 1996
October 1996
September 1996
August 1996
July 1996
June 1996
May 1996
April 1996


JiscMail is a Jisc service.

View our service policies at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ and Jisc's privacy policy at https://www.jisc.ac.uk/website/privacy-notice

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager