Now that gives out more information than just the date of payment. If we
text about your number we "discover more about you than cash ever can"
I now assume you are a prudent man who plans ahead and dislikes debt. I can
profile you as risk averse. I can assume you are probably older than 40.
Were I a life insurance salesman I could make a good guess at how to play my
first contact!
-----Original Message-----
From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Yuill, Allan
Sent: 03 February 2006 13:09
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [data-protection] BT SMS service
I received the same message. By any chance do you pay by direct debit like
me?
From the T&C:
"The Payment Status Service is not available for use with budget accounts,
such as where the account is paid by Direct Debit or Credit Card Recurring
Authority."
Allan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael DOHERTY
> PSE 53852
> Sent: 03 February 2006 13:02
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: BT SMS service
>
> Afternoon All,
>
>
> Sorry not a frequent contributor.
>
>
> Have just tried the "SMS Paid" service for my own residential BT line.
> The response informs me the request couldn't be processed as the
> service, "doesn't apply to all account types.See more details at
> www.bt.com/SMS." The site's FAQs say the service is for residential
> lines only. Is the service being rested for a while?
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Michael D
>
> >>> "Simon Howarth (RGC) Interim Information Governance
> Manager" <[log in to unmask]> 03/02/06
> 12:15:53 >>>
>
> Unfortunately Antoinette it's the way things are changing.
>
> There are a lot of reasons why this service should be
> challenged. If this becomes accepted, then what will they
> allow access to next. Having been involved in a number of
> attempted "fraudulent" uses of different media to get at
> information, I believe that this sort of service, if it is to
> go ahead, needs more safeguards and some proper thinking.
>
> At least the services is only a trial.
>
> I am stopping short of serving a section 10 notice on them,
> but I will watch Tim's efforts with interest.
>
> Regards,
>
> Simon Howarth.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carter, Antoinette (KIS)
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 03 February 2006 11:53
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [data-protection] BT SMS service
>
>
> Even allowing for the possibility that you may still be in
> shock over the loss of that third mauled cat, I have to say -
> Tim, you really need to get out more! I would just like to
> express the view that I can't imagine why anybody would want
> to receive SMS alerts from anyone for any reason. I find the
> whole concept invasive. I find it extraordinary that when
> junk mail arrives on the door step (that you can completely
> ignore for weeks and chuck away unopened if you wish) it
> causes people to loop out, and yet they actively subscribe to
> receive "junk" on their phone that bleeps you wherever you
> are, irrespective of the time of day or night. The whole
> world (but mainly those that are male, or under 25) have all
> gone technology mad, and SMS is the work of the devil!!!
> (Tim, any room in your padded cell for me??)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection
> issues [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tim Trent
> Sent: 03 February 2006 11:29
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [data-protection] BT SMS service
>
> I love it! But that is also forced consent, since you have
> absolutely not been given the chance to object!
>
> I am in process of using their website to serve a Section 10
> notice on them
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection
> issues [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> Simon Howarth (RGC) Interim Information Governance Manager
> Sent: 03 February 2006 11:26
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [data-protection] BT SMS service
>
> Well BT have got back to me saying that they understand I
> wish to be removed from their SMS alerts - which was not what
> my e-mail said!
>
>
> Interestingly has anyone else noticed this paragraph in the
> sms terms and conditions?
>
> "24. We exclude all liability of any kind (including
> negligence) in respect of any third party information or
> other material made available on, or which can be accessed
> using SMS text services."
>
> Including negligence? Surely this can't be right? They appear
> to be trying to say "Don't blame us if we give away all your
> information".
>
> Bizarre. It must be Friday.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Trent [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 03 February 2006 10:56
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [data-protection] BT SMS service
>
>
> The reason I extend it to "part of a policy" is to make sure
> that the defence is formal. It is far easier to be able to
> refer to a set of retention periods in a retention policy
> that you can back with documentation of the decision process
> than to pull the retention period out of thin air when challenged.
>
> Equally it is clear that different data has different
> retention periods.
> A marketing campaign has a short life. A customer
> relationship, including that of past customers has a longer
> one. One size truly does not fit all
>
> BTW Simon, since it is Friday, do you govern Interim Information ;)?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection
> issues [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> Simon Howarth (RGC) Interim Information Governance Manager
> Sent: 03 February 2006 10:26
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [data-protection] BT SMS service
>
> Defensible is the key. I have always found that if you
> request a view from the ICO they (usually) will agree to what
> you propose so long as you are justified.
>
>
> This is also an issue with breakdown companies. I did some
> training for a well known one and they were interested in
> retention. When a person rings up and says they no longer
> require brakdown cover because they have a new car with cover
> included, the company was aware that they would like to
> contact the customer again when their warranty was running
> out (or breakdown cover).
> The possible solutions were very interesting and innovative
> too, but it was solved for all concerned in a reasonable way.
>
> Any company should be allowed to do this, otherwise you are
> just tying them up in knots.
>
>
> Simon.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Trent [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 03 February 2006 10:13
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [data-protection] BT SMS service
>
>
> Provided the retention period is defensible, part of a
> policy, and reasonable I am in complete agreement with you,
> unless by "any" you mean "for ever", when I disagree.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection
> issues [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> Nigel Roberts
> Sent: 03 February 2006 10:08
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [data-protection] BT SMS service
>
> In my opinion, there is no fair reason for preventing any
> company (even a large one like BT) from retaining data on
> former customers for ANY reasonable length of time.
>
> It is historical commercial data of relevance.
>
> Your argument seems to be based on more on competition
> considerations than Data Protection. In that regard, bear in
> mind that until extremely recently BT was prevented (by the
> price cap) from offering lower prices than its competitors . .
>
>
>
> Nigel Roberts FBCS
> (ex-BT software developer)
>
> Simon Howarth (RGC) Interim Information Governance Manager wrote:
> > In the main I agree with Tim here, it's the context of the
> information
>
> > that is important. I had a chat about this with a colleague who
>
> > immediately thought about checking the phone bill of her friends
>
> > estranged husband who says he never has any money for child support
>
> > and can't afford to pay his bills. You have to rememember that
>
> > potentially any piece of information is personal
> information if it can
>
> > be match with other data to identify an individual, the fact that I
>
> > can find out when the bills have been paid for all the
> phone numbers I
> know, makes that personal information.
> >
>
> > It's this ability that could lead those with the time/energy/lack of
>
> > ethics, to garner more information and use it.
> >
>
> > Martin is wrong in saying that the enquiry appears to relate to a
>
> > phone bill, yes it does, but a phone bill is paid by
> someone. Utility
>
> > companies have spent a lot of time and money moving their
> information
>
> > management from a "household" to a person for this very
> reason. IN the
>
> > same vane as the anecdote above, one company I worked for, often got
>
> > calls from one of a seperated couple trying to find out
> this very fact
> > -
> how much was owed.
> > Whilst BT haven't gone this far (you need an account number
> to do that
> > - and that has implications all of its own) it's still not right or
> ethical.
> >
>
> >
>
> > On the subject of BT keeping old customer's (not customer's who are
>
> > old)information, I do not see the problem in that so long
> as there is
>
> > a strict retention policy. For example I helped to put in place a
>
> > mechanism for a mobile phone company that allowed (with a
> nod from the
> > ICO) contract data for two years. The argument being that a customer
>
> > will have left more than likely for another contract to which they
>
> > will be tied into for 12 to
> > 18 months. The company would then contact them after 10
> months to ask
>
> > them to come back, then again at 16 months and finally at about 22
>
> > months. If they have not come back after that, then the main details
>
> > are removed and only basic account data is kept for legal and
>
> > management reasons. I believe it has served them well.
> >
>
> > As for new market players I don't think that is relevant. As a new
>
> > player you buy your contacts (legally), or generate them
> yourself. If
>
> > a company already has this information through their own endeavours
>
> > and have the permission of the individuals to use it and they use it
> legally then fine.
> > The new player will get there eventually....
> >
>
> > Simon.
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Tim Trent [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: 03 February 2006 07:31
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [data-protection] BT SMS service
> >
>
> >
>
> > Now that gets more interesting.
>
> >
>
> > Let us assume that the data is "debatably personal" but definitely
>
> > confidential.
> >
>
> > Data must be processed fairly and lawfully.
> >
>
> > My private phone number (foolishly) appears on my private web site
>
> > (OK, it doesn't, but it could), and my private web domain is
>
> > registered correctly so a "whois" search can find who I am. I live
>
> > alone with my 27 cats. It says so in my web site. (Please
> keep real,
>
> > here, I only have two cats, my neighbour's greyhound killed
> the third
> while he watched).
> >
>
> > We now have the conditions where breaching confidentiality
> is unlawful
> > (surely?) and my phone number is capable of identifying me
> as a living
>
> > individual together with the other information which is easy for
>
> > anyone to posses. There will be a short survey about how anally
>
> > retentive I am shortly, plus the colour of the anorak I wear while
>
> > spotting trains at Clapham Junction. That makes both unlawful
>
> > processing and not keeping my data safe and secure.
> >
>
> > Add to this transfer of data to arbitrary third party, and also to
>
> > arbitrary third country (coz they have phones in darkest
> Swynthia, and
>
> > it is not a safe haven
> >
>
> > So, civil issue for tort over confidentiality. DPA
> complaint re lack
>
> > of security, unlawful processing, transfer to third party
> and transfer
>
> > to third country.
> >
>
> > I fully expect the UKIC to take precisely no action,
> because BT will,
>
> > by then, have ceased processing in this manner, and, as we know, he
>
> > does nothing about offences after you stop committing them.
> {I am so
>
> > glad you have stopped killing your patients, Dr Shipman.
> Please carry
>
> > on, you are an excellent GP; you have such youthful and fit
> patients,
>
> > too; it's a pleasure to visit your surgery.]
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
>
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Martin Hoskins
> > Sent: 03 February 2006 00:26
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [data-protection] BT SMS service
> >
>
> > I'm playing the Devil's advocate this Friday morning! In a
> post-Durant
>
> > world are we really certain that the information that BT is
> sending by
>
> > SMS really is "personal data"?
> >
>
> > BT might argue that the information was confidential, but
> that it was
>
> > not sufficiently "pesonal" to fall within the ambit of the
> DPA. After
>
> > all, the account could be a corporate account, or it could
> be used by
>
> > someone (or the bill paid by someone) other than the individual to
>
> > whom the account may have been registered. The information being
>
> > released by BT appears to relate to the phone bill, which
> seems to be
>
> > some way from the Durant test of personal data, which is that the
>
> > material needs to be biographical or about someone, rather
> than about
> something that has a less precise link with an individual.
> >
>
> > I agree that BT appear to have acted foolishly in allowing
> "anyone" to
>
> > learn of the date that a particular phone account was paid. But I
>
> > would suggest that BT is closer to breaching the tort of confidence
>
> > than
> it is of the DPA.
> >
>
> > Just a few thoughts to stimulate the debate!
> >
>
> >
>
> > --------------------------
> > Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless Handheld
> >
>
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Sent: Thu Feb 02 20:34:07 2006
> > Subject: Re: BT SMS service
> >
>
> > Remember the friend whose bill I checked? Well he called
> 150 and then
>
> > pressed 9 to get straight through to the customer service team.
> >
>
> > After telling him that this was a matter for his mobile provider, O2
>
> > and hanging up on him he called O2 and found that the short number
>
> > belongs to "SSSN" a subsidiary of BT. He called back and
> suggested he
>
> > might be about to unleash the hounds of hell upon them. He has a
>
> > sense of
> the absurd.
> >
>
> > This crew had heard of the problem. Apparently they'd had another
>
> > call about it this evening. I wonder who that was?
> >
>
> > They are referring it to the Data Protection team and senior
>
> > management in the morning. My friend is referring it to
> the UKIC and
> Ofcom.
> >
>
> > And he is passing the baton to a few friends of his.
> >
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
>
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ian Welton
> > Sent: 02 February 2006 20:05
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [data-protection] BT SMS service
> >
>
> > Given that BT consider the service of such importance it apparently
>
> > warranted a SMS message to all its SMS subscribers (with
> perhaps other
>
> > marketing material yet to come) I wonder if they will consider the
>
> > security issues created sufficiently problematic to report any
>
> > breaches that occur to the data subjects affected thereby
> allowing the
>
> > data subject to decide if they constitute a serious enough offence
>
> > against
> them to take action?
> >
>
> > Or maybe subscribers will be left in the dark and reliant
> upon subject
>
> > access to try and find details of how any experienced compromise was
> caused.
> >
>
> >
>
> > Ian W
> >
>
> >
>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
>
> >>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tim Trent
> >>Sent: 02 February 2006 17:31
> >>To: [log in to unmask]
> >>Subject: Re: BT SMS service
> >>
> >>
> >>I am in the middle of "150" at present and listening to "elevator
>
> >>music" between talking to a very pleasant lady who has a colleague
>
> >>with her who "knows about the service"
> >>
> >>She has asked me if I had my friend's permission to enquire
> about his
>
> >>bill payment. I explained that I did not, but that I would tell him
>
> >>this evening, and that he would be angry and would doubtless make a
>
> >>formal complaint as well. She did suggest that my enquiry may be
>
> >>fraudulent! I was very polite and did not laugh at all.
> >>
> >>This is an odd one. I believe that it is Data which, "with
> other data
>
> >>in the possession of..." is capable of identifying a living
>
> >>individual. Others may disagree
> >>
> >>Terms and conditions are at
> >>http://www2.bt.com/static/i/btretail/panretail/sms/Terms_condi
> >>tions.htm
> >>
> >>Been on the call 20 minutes so far. I am glad I am not in
> the smelly
>
> >>call box in the village!
> >>
> >>We do have BT's data protection guru on this list by the way!
> >> She's a very nice practical person. I bet no-one asked her about
>
> >>this service though.
> >>
> >>More when I get the call concluded
> >>
> >>
> >>-----Original Message-----
> >>From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
>
> >>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tony Bowden
> >>Sent: 02 February 2006 17:13
> >>To: [log in to unmask]
> >>Subject: Re: [data-protection] BT SMS service
> >>
> >>On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 05:00:33PM -0000, Tim Trent wrote:
> >>
> >>>>I phoned BT to complain, but neither of the two people I talked to
>
> >>>>seemed to even be aware of the service, and certainly
> >>
> >>didn't know how
> >>
> >>>>to handle enquiries about the privacy implications of it. I'm
>
> >>>>currently waiting for someone more senior to call me back.
> >>
> >>>How on earth did you find a number to call?
> >>
> >>On the www.bt.com/sms page there's a "terms and conditions" link.
> >>
> >>Buried in that page (para 10) there's mention of their
> "Customer Care
>
> >>line on 0800 800947"
> >>
> >>That doesn't really seem to be a Customer Care line though, as the
>
> >>first person I spoke to said he'd have to pass the enquiry onto
>
> >>Customer Care.
> >>
> >>And of course, 45 minutes later, I still haven't received my
> >>"15 to 20 minutes" response ...
> >>
> >>Tony
> >>
> >>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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>
> > --
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.0/248 - Release
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> >
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
All archives of messages are stored permanently and are
available to the world wide web community at large at
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/data-protection.html
If you wish to leave this list please send the command
leave data-protection to [log in to unmask]
All user commands can be found at : -
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/help/commandref.htm
Any queries about sending or receiving message please send to the list owner
[log in to unmask]
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
All archives of messages are stored permanently and are
available to the world wide web community at large at
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/data-protection.html
If you wish to leave this list please send the command
leave data-protection to [log in to unmask]
All user commands can be found at : -
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/help/commandref.htm
Any queries about sending or receiving message please send to the list owner
[log in to unmask]
(all commands go to [log in to unmask] not the list please)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
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