medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Hi, Laura
I am sure there is lots for you in Humbert de Romans' De mode prompte
cudendi sermones circa omnem hominem genus (c.. 1270-74). It's in the
Bibliotheca maxima veterum patrum - I don't know if a more modern edition
exists. It contains a great sermon meant for poor village women, of which
I have a translation somewhere.
Bernadette Filotas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Laura Jacobus" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 8:41 AM
Subject: Re: [M-R] JdV's 'estate sermons'
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> Dear John,
>
> Estate sermons sound like just the sort of thing I'm looking for, as I'm
in
> the middle of writing a chapter on how Giotto's frescoes can be related to
> conduct literature and devotional literature aimed at different
> audiences(women, children, knights, merchants etc) I didn't know about
> these. I'd be especially interested in those for merchants and children
as
> I'm finding sources hard to come by. Presumably they are published? I too
> would be interested in seeing your translation of the children's one if
you
> wouldn't mind.
>
> yours
>
> Laura
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: 23 November 2005 02:37
> Subject: Re: Children in church
>
>
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
culture
> >
> > Sorry, Dan. The sermon for children was the only one I translated;
> > checking the original, I see it was titled "ad pueros et adolescentes."
I
> > don't have any other references to send you to other than what might be
in
> > Nicholas Orme's book, which I found very enlightening. The sermon was
in
> > a series of Jacques de Vitry's "estate sermons" aimed at various
> > classes--one for merchants, another for farmers, for sailors, etc. I'm
> > happy to send you the complete translation of the children's sermon
> > off-list if you like.
> >
> > That's a great admonition against wrestling, by the way. My impression
> > from English visitation records, synodal legislation, and pastoral
manuals
> > is that your average village church and churchyard must have been pretty
> > boisterous places.
> >
> > Best,
> > John
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Dan Kline <[log in to unmask]>
> > Date: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 6:00 pm
> > Subject: Re: [M-R] Children in church
> >
> >> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> >> culture
> >> Great thread!
> >>
> >> John, as my Latin is rusty and my access to sources even more
> >> limited, does
> >> your anthology have other de Vitry sermons directed toward
> >> children, or do
> >> you know any references to translated sources? I'd like to read a
> >> bit more.
> >>
> >> The question rang a little bell in my mind. Riley's _Memorials of
> >> London and
> >> London Life_ (p. 580) records the following edict (12 Henry IV
> >> A.D. 1411)
> >> from London's Letter Book I, fol. civ:
> >>
> >> "That no manere man ne child, of what estate or condicioun that he
> >> be, be he
> >> so hardy to wrestell, or make ony wrestliyng, within the Sentiuary
> >> ne the
> >> boundes of Poules [Saint Paul's], ne in non other open place
> >> within the
> >> Citee of Londone, up<on> peyne of emprisonement of fourty dayes,
> >> and making
> >> fyn unto the Chaumbre, after the discrecioun of the Mair and
> >> Aldermen."
> >> Of course, it's unclear as to whether the said wrestling took
> >> place during
> >> services or whether the church simply provided an ample and
> >> tempting venue!
> >>
> >> Best from Anchorage,
> >>
> >> Dan
> >>
> >> ____________________________________
> >> Dr. Daniel T. Kline
> >> Associate Professor of English
> >> U of Alaska Anchorage
> >> 3211 Providence Drive
> >> Anchorage, Alaska 99508
> >> 907-786-4364 | [log in to unmask]
> >> The Electronic Canterbury Tales:
> >> http://afdtk.uaa.alaska.edu/index.htm
> >>
> >> "Fortunately, I keep my feathers numbered
> >> for just such an emergency."
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious
> >> culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
> >> [log in to unmask]
> >> Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 12:01 PM
> >> To: [log in to unmask]
> >> Subject: Re: [M-R] Children in church
> >>
> >> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> >> culture
> >> In one of his sermons from the 1230s intended for boys/children
> >> (pueri) and
> >> talking about how they should learn their prayers, Jacques de
> >> Vitry (c.
> >> 1180-c. 1240) has this to say about what children should do upon
> >> entering a
> >> church. Unfortunately, he doesn't elaborate about how they should
> >> behaveduring the course of a service. In the legislative and
> >> pastoral sources I
> >> know, it is usually godparents who were charged with seeing that their
> >> godchildren learned the basic Christian prayers (Pater noster,
> >> Ave, Creed,
> >> sign of the cross). There is some brief anecdotal reference to
> >> how Joan of
> >> Arc (who says she learned all her prayers from her mother) acted
> >> in church
> >> in the transcripts of her trial. Given that the instructions for
> >> behavingin church for adult lay people don't usually go much
> >> beyond stand
> >> reverently, pray what prayers you know, and bow at the elevation
> >> of the
> >> Host, I doubt children could be expected to know or do any more
> >> than their
> >> parents.
> >>
> >> "When you enter God's church, after making the sign of the cross you
> >> should immediately greet the Lord of the house by kneeling before
> >> the altar
> >> or the image of the Crucified and giving him thanks, saying, "We
> >> adore you,
> >> Christ, and we bless you, for by your holy cross you have redeemed the
> >> world." Say this five times in honor of him who bore the five
> >> wounds for us.
> >> And if you don't know how to say this greeting to the crucifix in
> >> Latin, say
> >> it in your native language.
> >> "After greeting the Lord of the house, next you should greet the
> >> Lady, kneeling before the image of the Blessed Virgin and saying
> >> seven times
> >> the angel's greeting, that is, "Hail Mary, full of grace" in honor
> >> of her
> >> who, filled sevenfold with the Spirit, conceived the Son of God.
> >> For she is
> >> courtly and kind, and she will return your greeting, perhaps not
> >> in words
> >> but in deeds.
> >> "When you have done this, offer your faith to God and say the Creed,
> >> and then any other prayers that God inspires in you."
> >>
> >> From Jean Baptiste Cardinal Pitra (ed.), _Analecta Novissima
> >> SpicilegiiSolesmensis, Altera Continuatio_, v. 2 (Typis
> >> Tusculanis, 1888), pp.
> >> 439-442. My translation from my _Medieval Popular Religion: A Reader_.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> John
> >>
> >> -------------------------------------------------
> >> John Shinners
> >> Professor of Humanistic Studies
> >> Saint Mary's College
> >> Notre Dame, IN 46556
> >> Office: (574) 284-4494
> >> Fax: (574) 284-4716
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: Chris Daniell <[log in to unmask]>
> >> Date: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 7:52 am
> >> Subject: [M-R] Children in church
> >>
> >> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion
> >> and
> >> > culture
> >> > Does anyone know articles or accounts of the attitude and
> >> presence
> >> > of
> >> > children in church. (I am thinking here of the practicalities of
> >> > children
> >> > in church during services.) As the father of an active 3 year
> >> old
> >> > who can
> >> > explore or enjoy playing with toys in the church it struck me
> >> that
> >> > I can't
> >> > think of Medieval English examples of people commenting on
> >> > children in
> >> > church. Were children excluded, segregated, ignored or accepted
> >> > and
> >> > tolerated. I suspect the latter but have no examples one way or
> >> > the other.
> >> >
> >> > Chris Daniell
> >> >
> >> >
> >> **********************************************************************>
> >> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
> >> > to: [log in to unmask]
> >> > To send a message to the list, address it to:
> >> > [log in to unmask]
> >> > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
> >> > to: [log in to unmask]
> >> > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners,
> >> write to:
> >> > [log in to unmask]
> >> > For further information, visit our web site:
> >> > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
> >> >
> >>
> >> **********************************************************************
> >> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
> >> to: [log in to unmask]
> >> To send a message to the list, address it to:
> >> [log in to unmask]
> >> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
> >> to: [log in to unmask]
> >> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
> >> [log in to unmask]
> >> For further information, visit our web site:
> >> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
> >>
> >> **********************************************************************
> >> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
> >> to: [log in to unmask]
> >> To send a message to the list, address it to:
> >> [log in to unmask]
> >> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
> >> to: [log in to unmask]
> >> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
> >> [log in to unmask]
> >> For further information, visit our web site:
> >> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
> >>
> >
> > **********************************************************************
> > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
> > to: [log in to unmask]
> > To send a message to the list, address it to:
> > [log in to unmask]
> > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
> > to: [log in to unmask]
> > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
> > [log in to unmask]
> > For further information, visit our web site:
> > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
>
> **********************************************************************
> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
> to: [log in to unmask]
> To send a message to the list, address it to:
> [log in to unmask]
> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
> to: [log in to unmask]
> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
> [log in to unmask]
> For further information, visit our web site:
> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.361 / Virus Database: 267.13.4/175 - Release Date: 11/18/2005
>
>
**********************************************************************
To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
to: [log in to unmask]
To send a message to the list, address it to:
[log in to unmask]
To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
to: [log in to unmask]
In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
[log in to unmask]
For further information, visit our web site:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
|
