There was a discussion on HER forum about recording buildings back in April 2004 (check the archives) which suggested exactly what Kim said - and some people at least (including the NMR) do record buildings in that way, and I think it is a good idea.
However, in practical terms I actually record buildings more like Tracey due to time issues.
When I have 3 HER assistants/ some volunteers then we may go back and split each phase, but at the moment only changes in type get recorded eg a new House front date is not recorded but a change from jute to flax mill would be
best wishes
Nick Boldrini
Historic Environment Record Officer
Heritage Section
Countryside Service
North Yorkshire County Council
Direct Dial (01609) 532331
Conserving North Yorkshire's heritage - encouraging sustainable access
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>>> [log in to unmask] 26/08/2005 14:18:01 >>>
Until a more satisfactory solution can be found I currently use period /
specific date fields to record the entire date range of a building,
covering its construction, any alterations, extensions etc (eg C16-C19)
and then provide more details in the description field. That way I don't
have to enter a building more than once and can ensure that it is picked
up in any specific period search requested.
******************************
Tracy Matthews
Sites and Monuments Officer
Winchester City Council
75 Hyde Street
Winchester
SO23 7DW
tel: 01962 848 380
fax: 01962 848 299
email: [log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Sites & Monuments Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of MacLean, Sarah
Sent: 26 August 2005 14:14
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of Periods, MIDAS II and so forth [No Viruses
detected]
I was thinking the same thing only the other day Kim when I was
inputting listed building data. On our system (which isn't HBSMR) I
would have to attach several different monument types just to cover each
phase of building work on some of these buildings.
The question at the end of the day is would more periods
actually be useful when searching for data? I admit I've only been here
a couple of months but so far I haven't been asked for records on 16th
century houses or Victorian wells etc. That doesn't mean to say I won't
be asked for that sort of data in the future, but would additional
periods be useful in the long term?
Sarah MacLean
Historic Records Officer
Conservation Team
Community and Enivronmental Services
Northumberland County Council
County Hall
Morpeth NE61 2EF
Telephone: 01670 534060
Fax: 01670 533086
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Website: http://www.northumberland.gov.uk
<http://www.northumberland.gov.uk> & www.keystothepast.info
<http://www.keystothepast.info>
________________________________
From: Issues related to Sites & Monuments Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Biddulph, Kim
Sent: 26 August 2005 14:09
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of Periods, MIDAS II and so forth [No Viruses
detected]
Ah, but I don't think you can put more than one display date for
each monument type. What if a house was built in the sixteenth century,
extended in the seventeenth, refronted in the eighteenth, remodelled in
the nineteenth and demolished in 1935? You would need five monument
types HOUSE to record each phase. How about more than one display date?
And how about it doesn't display on the tree tab?
Kim Biddulph
Unlocking Buckinghamshire's Past Project Officer
County Archaeology Service
Buckinghamshire County Council
01296 382072
http://www.buckscc.gov.uk/countryside/
http://www.buckscc.gov.uk/archaeology/
-----Original Message-----
From: Tobi Tonner [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 26 August 2005 13:48
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of Periods, MIDAS II and so forth
In response to Duncan:
I think my first point wasn't phrased carefully enough - I
actually meant:
1) What are the period terms that are useful in the SMR/HER
recording context? Is it possible to compile a comprehensive list with
the help of the SMR/HERs?
RE point 4):
In HBSMR you can of course record a so-called 'display date'
which can contain any text (e.g. "WWII", "1947", "Spring 2005", "Second
half of 1939", ...). This does allow the user to elaborate on the period
start and end years entered. Additionally each period time span can have
a qualifier (e.g. "at some time", "occasionally", "pre", "post", ...).
Finally the confidence for the start and end year can be entered.
Tobi.
________________________________
From: BROWN, Duncan
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 26 August 2005 12:18
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Use of Periods, MIDAS II and so forth
Happy Friday everyone!
To support Ed's point and in answer to Tobi:
1) All of them. Each period term answers a specific question
that a user might want to ask.
2) Defining start and end years for period terms is a
notoriously difficult political and intellectual minefield. But why only
use 14th century when you know you have a terminus post quem of 1358?
3) This is probably key. A mid 20th century defensive structure
can probably be described as WW2 (or any variant thereof); specific date
ranges for construction, use, disuse and demolition might all apply.
Neo-Gothic both refers to an architectural style and to a period of
construction in that style. Both are relevant because users will want to
use these terms to define their searches. Roman refers to a period of
occupation by the Roman Imperium and to the cultural products of the
Roman Empire, which both predate and post-date that occupation.
4) If you only store date ranges, without the flexibility of
relating these to period terms (independent of date ranges) how can you
answer questions like these?
I think this is a question for software developers, but they
would need to be guided by what HERs are seeking to do - to give
specific answers to specific questions, or to give answers that return
results inclusive of the terms of the question. The latter is simpler to
achieve, but the former is what users would probably prefer.
Duncan
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Sites & Monuments Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tobi Tonner
Sent: 26 August 2005 11:35
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of Periods [No Viruses detected]
Hi all,
It seems to me that there are several independent issues here
which are
all mixed up:
1) What period terms are useful in the SMR/HER recording
context?
2) What time do these useful periods cover (start years and end
years)?
3) For which SMR/HER record types can each of these useful
periods be
used?
4) How should period information be stored in a computer system
(in
HBSMR we do not store the period name against each monument type
but
only the start and end year)?
I believe that (1) could be quite a long list which represents
the
complexity of the whole period issue. This complexity would need
to be
ordered with (3) and defined by (2). Last but not least point
(4) will
need to be decided by the software developers (in the HBSMR case
it
wouldn't need any change to the application as it can easily
handle this
complexity).
Hope this disentangles the discussion a bit.
Tobi.
Tobi Tonner
HBSMR Consultant
exeGesIS Spatial Data Management Ltd
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-----Original Message-----
From: MacLean, Sarah [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 26 August 2005 11:09
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of Periods [No Viruses detected]
Dare I also mention the dreaded word backlog? I don't know how
easy it
would be for all of you on HBSMR to go back and change records
if we
added new periods but I know it would take me a while!
Sarah MacLean
Historic Records Officer
Conservation Team
Community and Enivronmental Services
Northumberland County Council
County Hall
Morpeth NE61 2EF
Telephone: 01670 534060
Fax: 01670 533086
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
Website: http://www.northumberland.gov.uk &
www.keystothepast.info
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Sites & Monuments Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Iles, Peter
Sent: 26 August 2005 11:02
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of Periods [No Viruses detected]
OK, I was exaggerating for effect and now have been hung with my
own
thingy.
'Descriptive' might have been a better term to use than
'interpretive'
and
yes, centuries are more useful in the medieval and later
periods.
I am not advocating the loss of the wider period terms, and do
use post
medieval as a term where I don't have anything better but what I
am
struggling against is a computer system that assigns 'Victorian'
to a
site I can only say is pre-1848 (i.e. shown on OS first edition
1:10,560
map).
OK,
I should just change the computer look-up table, but this seems
to have
been implemented as a 'standard' and I'm not the only one who
thinks it
is 'wrong'.
Pete Iles
-----Original Message-----
From: David Evans [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 26 August 2005 10:17
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of Periods [No Viruses detected]
I agree completely, you make my point better than I did. Post
medieval
is extremely valuable.
Thank You
David Evans
Historic Environment Record Officer
Planning & Environment
South Gloucestershire Council
Kingswood
BS15 9TR
01454 863649
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Sites & Monuments Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of MacLean, Sarah
Sent: 26 August 2005 10:12
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of Periods [No Viruses detected]
This is all beginning to be a bit confusing. Yes I can see the
value of
using centuries from about 1500 onwards. My question is, do we
still use
post medieval as well though? I find it very useful for the
first
edition OS sites we're starting to list that are very likely to
be post
medieval but that we can't put a more accurate date on than
that.
Best wishes
Sarah
Sarah MacLean
Historic Records Officer
Conservation Team
Community and Enivronmental Services
Northumberland County Council
County Hall
Morpeth NE61 2EF
Telephone: 01670 534060
Fax: 01670 533086
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
Website: http://www.northumberland.gov.uk &
www.keystothepast.info
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Sites & Monuments Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David Evans
Sent: 26 August 2005 09:28
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of Periods [No Viruses detected]
So how are centuries any less interpretive than terms such as
Bronze
Age?
I will wait for the request for information on sites dating from
the
second half of the first century until sometime in the fourth!
I accept that post medieval is difficult for the C19 but is
Victorian
any better, Victorian Clifton Suspension Bridge, which it
isn't!.
I will keep modern, after all in the post modern period whoever
is
running the HERs can change it!
I am going to use the terms pre Hwiccan and Hwiccan for the
period up to
AD 650 and after because seventh century is a nonsense!
Thank You
David Evans
Historic Environment Record Officer
Planning & Environment
South Gloucestershire Council
Kingswood
BS15 9TR
01454 863649
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Sites & Monuments Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Iles, Peter
Sent: 26 August 2005 08:46
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Use of Periods
Can I add a word of support to Sarah and others, - lets use the
century
method as a standard and use the 'named period' in the
interpretation
where it belongs.
p.s. Kudos for Sarah's dedication to the forum, replying from
hols in
Italy!
Peter Iles
Specialist Advisor (Archaeology)
Lancashire County Council Environment Directorate PO Box 9 Guild
House
Cross Street Preston
PR1 8RD
T 01772 531550
F 01772 533423
E [log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: Poppy Sarah [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 25 August 2005 18:40
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: R: Use of Periods
Dear Martin et al
Sorry if this is yesterdays discussion but here is my pennies
worth...
I would agree with Julia, and say I prefer for indexing by
century for
the medieval and post-medieval periods (plus using WWI and WWII
accordingly), which seem much less value laden, whilst using
Medieval
and Post-Medieval where remains can be less closely dated.
However, do
we need to opt for one or the other? An information retrieval
system
should be able to handle both together - so while 19th century
may be
more appropriate for archaeological remains, and Victorian would
be more
appropriate for built heritage, a query searching for heritage
information relating to the period 1800-1900 would retrieve both
as
being of potential relevance, without losing the ability to
query only
Victorian etc.
I do agree with abandoning Modern in favour of 20th and 21st
century.
All the best
Sarah
________________________________
Da: Issues related to Sites & Monuments Records per conto di
NEWMAN,
Martin
Inviato: mar 23/08/2005 13.20
A: [log in to unmask]
Oggetto: Use of Periods
The DSU has recently made some changes to the PERIODS hierarchy
used by
the NMRs AMIE system (see below). We are now consulting with
system
users here before making changes to records. We would also like
to
consult other users of the PERIODS hierarchy especially HERs
using our
reference data (e.g.
those using HBSMR). If your PERIOD list is brought into line
with that
at the NMR then the issues we are consulting NMR users over will
be of
equal relevance.
Regards
Martin
----------------------------------------------
Martin Newman
Datasets Development Manager
AMIE Period Change
Recent changes to AMIE have seen the replacement of the MODERN
period
with the two periods 20TH CENTURY and 21ST CENTURY.
Additional regal periods of TUDOR, ELIZABETHAN, STUART,
JACOBEAN,
HANOVERIAN, GEORGIAN and VICTORIAN have also been added (or in
the case
of VICTORIAN been in existence for some time but not used).
DSU would welcome comments on how periods should be used/are
being used
to record POST MEDIEVAL dates.
For instance there are c.173000 records in AMIE which are
currently
identified as being POST MEDIEVAL in date. Of those over 36,000
have
min/max dates falling within the VICTORIAN period.
Where a monument is known to have been built after 1837 but
before 1901
does it make sense to record this as VICTORIAN?
A similar number of records exist for the GEORGIAN period
between 1714
and 1830.
Two questions need answering:
1. Are users happy with using 20th and 21st Century instead
of
MODERN?
2. Should POST MEDIEVAL records be updated to
VICTORIAN/GEORGIAN
etc.
where the phase is a construction/alteration/repair phase?
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