medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
From: Dr Rosemary Hayes <[log in to unmask]>
> I think perhaps you are being a little unduly cynical about the motives of
the English kings
cynical?
me?
about the motives of the English Kings?
the descendants of Bill the Bastard, one of the most sucessful rip-off artists
of the whole of the m.a.?
why, you cut me to the Quick, Rosemarie.
>or am I unduly naive?)
probably.
but far be it from me to say such a thing.
> I do not think many of the people whose arrests were requested would have
lost their goods permanently.
?
then what would be the point of confiscating them?
sure, they might have gotten *some* of it back --*may*be even all, *if* they
won the case in the eccl. court.
though i would think that the Secular Arm would have wanted some kind of
"collection fee" for services rendered, and just might take their cut off the
Top, no matter who won in court.
maybe that's too cynical a way of looking at it, though, since the King was
always primarily interested in Justice, right?
> Certainly in the period I know (15th century)
*far* too many documents surviving from that time to do real, imaginative
History.
>this tool was used mainly for the contumacious who would not appear in
ecclesiastical courts when summoned.
well, i suppose that those who were ScoffLaws were "contumacious", by
definition.
certainly, from the point of view of the bishops in Joinville's anecdote they
were.
that was the whole point of axing the King to Stroke them a bit, wasn't it?
>Few of them, when they finally turned up would have suffered very
harsh punishment.
?
depends upon the crime --and, of course, whether they won their case or not--
doesn't it?
clearly, the "contumacious" who were ignoring the summonses to the bishops'
courts thought that their crime --and/or the probability of their conviction
of it-- was significant enough to tempt them to ignore the eccl. courts?
obviously, whoever it was that the bishops in Joinville were aiming their
sights at were probably involved in some kind of Heavy DoDo --Heavy enough to
get the attention of the bishops, and for them to bring the matter before the
King.
>I think the process was largely to the benefit of the ecclesiastical courts
obviously.
>(you may argue about whether you think they should have had any authority)
not for me to argue that, even if i were inclined to.
i'll take the System as it existed : a system of ecclesiastical courts which
had the right to try cases involving not only "spiritual" matters, but also
quite secular ones, depending upon what "liberties" of the eccl. institution
had to exercise over its own property. (i.e., commit a crime on certain land
owned by the church and you had to go before an ecclesiastical court, if the
owner had such a "liberty".)
>which seemed largely to have had power of citation but not of arrest.
well, that's the whole point of the "Secular Arm", is it not?
though, i would think that the appropriate eccl. authorities would have power
of arrest within certain geographical areas --certainly within church
buildings and closes, and maybe even on ecclesiastical land anywhere
(depending upon the "liberties" which had been granted previously to any
particular eccl. unit).
>How well it worked I do not know.
it would work well enough, as long as the eccl. courts could get the Secular
Arm to put the Muscle on the contumacious SkoffLaws, i should think.
fellow gets his property confiscated by the King's thugs, such a thing might
focus the Mind of the contumacious most wonderfully.
>I seem to remember a case when a bishop was so frustrated by the failure of a
sheriff to carry out the requested arrest that he excommunicated the sheriff!
that's the ultimate power of excommunication --it may not be as immediately
effective as a good, old fashion Head Bashing, but is effective enough, over
time.
i'm reminded of a story i heard some years ago to the effect that starfish
--which eat clams-- can exert a force of 5 lb./sq. inch with the suckers on
their "arms".
clams, otOh, can exert a force to keep their shell together of 7 lb./sq.
inch.
but, the clams can only exert their force for an hour; while the starfish can
keep theirs up for 70 minutes.
(the stats might be all wrong --or the whole thing might be totally fictive,
but the basic idea is Operative. at least if you are a clam.)
at Chartres there is a largish stone right at the entrance to the grounds of
the Bishop's palace, at the East end of the North close.
there is a large, heavy iron ring attached to that stone.
word has it that folks who were to appear before the Bishop's court were
chained to that stone, waiting for their case to be heard.
the canons of the cathedral had, from King and Count, grants of the "liberty"
of their "cloister" (which covered a rather large area around the cathedral),
which included all Justice rights to crimes committed within its confines.
i don't think that this was an unusual situation at all, at least in France.
c
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Christopher Crockett" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 2:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [M-R] Louis IX & excommunication
>
>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> From: Dr Rosemary Hayes <[log in to unmask]>
>
> > in England by the thirteenth century a bishop could request the royal
> chancery to issue a writ ordering the local sheriff to capture and detain
> persons who had remained obdurately excommunicate for more than 40 days.
>
>
> sounds like the English king was acting in his own best interest, as
opposed
> to the French, who was acting like some sort of Saint or something.
>
> "capture and detain" wasn't the Operative factor here, but rather, as
> Joinville says,
>
> "to compel them, ***by seizure of their possessions***"
>
> typically, the English guy Siezes the Moment to smash & grab stuff which
> wasn't nailed down --with the Blessing of Holy Mother Church, no less--
> while
> Louis' passing up this opportunity appears to me to be either a Saintly act
> or, perhaps, one driven by other motives.
>
> i wonder what the specific circumstances were which precipitated the
> bishops'
> initial request.
>
> a bit late for the Cathars in the South --or was it?
>
> perhaps there was some specific vassal (or faction of vassals) who was the
> target of the Bishops' (or faction of Bishops) action?
>
> though by Louis9's time the Capetian was in a much stronger position
> viz-a-viz
> his vassals than he was in the time of Louis7, it was in the nature of
> middlevil Kingship that he was constantly playing factions among his major
> subjects against one another, i should think.
>
> c
>
>
>
> "Lots of useless other data points just enlarge the consciousness of the
> agrieved showing how particular the pain is."
> --Burma Shave
>
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