At 02:44 PM 2/23/2005 -0500, you wrote:
>My own focus (temporary and fuzzy) on S&H concerned their headnotes--which
>owe a lot, eventually, to Calvin and Beza and go back, in content and
>approach, at least as far as Bucer (with much more historical elaboration
>than one finds in Catholic or from what I can make out Jewish tradition).

These are Whittingham's, or at any rate nearly identical to the headnotes
in the Geneva Bible. (With a couple of major departures that emphasize
liturgical use rather than Protestant commentary/polemic.)

>Beth, my "evidence" for something beyond psalm singing, as near as I can
>remember, came from one of the books edited by Clay long ago. The only one
>I own, though, says "private prayers"--it does include stuff to sing. I do
>think, though, that the non-psalm hymns such as the nunc dimittis do
>matter and complicated any "psalms only" assumption. I don't know how many
>congregations actually sang them or simply heard the priest/minister
>recite them.

There's evidence that in the relative liturgical chaos of Elizabeth's first
two years that some Londoners were singing the Te Deum congregationally,
and I have always assumed that the practice continued with the music
printed in S-H, though I can't back it up. But of course you're right,
Anne, that this is not "psalms-only," and I don't think any but separatists
or near-separatists in England ever hewed to that.  Even the Geneva exiles
wrote some non-psalm hymns.

>     I do think that "what did Spenser sing in church" is a huge topic and
>the evidence is complicated and would include hymns sung before of
>after the actual offical service. An EEB0 search of "hymnes" and
>"liturgie" turned up masses of material and I was particularly struck
>by John Boys's (STC 3458; 1610) efforts on image 113 to distinguish
>between psalms and hymns. This is helpful because so many people used
>"psalms and hymns" without seeming to distinguish.

A great reference. It's instructive, too, that Boys seems to assume that
non-scriptural hymns should be those written in the age of the spirit, i.e.
sometime before now. Though it's true that S-H included the hymn by Robert
Wisdom which caused much outrage among Catholics and, after the
Restoration, high Anglicans, by begging for protection from the Pope and
the Turk. On the dominance of S-H, though, I think it's important that
Wither in 1624 finds it necessary to point out that, despite what "the
vulgar" think, the use of S-H is *not* compulsory in the English Church.

>George Wither, in
>his ill fated book of hymns for church, also distinguishes among
>"canonical hymns," hymns by ordinary people early in the Christian
>era, and modern ones.

Which reminds me--Spenserians, of all people, might be interested in
Wither's defense of his hymn for St. George's Day, which he tells us that
the Stationers objected to on the grounds of popishness.  This he does by
affirming that no one could understand the name "St. George" as referring
to anyone but Christ, and that even if originally some completely clueless
people "mistook our Patron," it seems much more likely that it was intended
as an allegory all along (The Schollers Purgatorie, STC 25919, images 44-48).

This is after a very long argument as to why the Song of Solomon is fit for
children and ardent young men to sing in church.

>The canonical hymns are from the Bible, of
>course, and are hymns, not psalms. As somebody on the list remarked,
>they too may be found in S&H. It is the case that the great age of
>congregational hymns is yet to come, but there were efforts to write
>what we call "hymns" much earlier--in patristic times--and again in
>the Renaissance; as I said in an earier post, whatever is the case in
>those days, some of them are sung now.
>     I doubt there's a clear or simple answer to what Spenser would have
>sung in church, for the history of the C of E liturgy is complicated
>and shifting. Was there in fact variation in time and place in
>Spenser's day? Elizabeth's chapel was quite different from many a
>parish church. Judith Maltby might be a good person to ask, with her
>book on the BCP. Wither hoped his hymns, what we would call hymns and
>not psalms or "canonical hymns," but his own hymns, would be used in
>Church and James seemed cool with the idea even if the Stationers
>Company didn't cooperate. But would Bishop Parker have liked the idea?
>It's not always clear what "chant" means, either. Even when music was
>not congregational would he have been singing inside his own head?
>     Also a puzzle for me is the matter of special prayers published, I
>would assume, with the encouragement or even requirement of the
>authorities. Not just the special prayer for the Earl of Leicester's
>expedition, for examplel,but something more tuneful like "A godly
>ditty or prayer to be song unto God for the preservation of his
>Church, our Queene and realme, against all traytours, rebels, and
>papisticall enemies" (1569), which is a very handsome broadside
>(including a lion and Tudor dragon bearing the royal coat of arms)
>with instructions to sing it to the tune of psalm 137 "Or such lyke."
>Were such hymns/ditties ever sung in church even if before or after
>the service?

A great question! A number of accounts of outbursts of public patriotism in
Elizabeth's reign include psalms sung in the streets, and I'd bet that
ditties like this one were included; but that, of course, doesn't answer
the question of whether they might also be sung before or after service.

>      My point is that this is not just a huge and specialized topic but
>one with many ambiguities (including what I think is Spenser's
>knowledge of the Sarum missal with lots of hymns--not that he would
>have heard/sung them, I assume). By the way, Tom Roche--George
>Abbot's STC 121, image 31 (in this text with materials on "Psalmes,
>Hymnes, and spiritual songs" in which the congregation *seems* to be
>singing, includes a nasty crack at something  (I couldn't quite
>follow him) that he derives from, he says, the "Roman liturgie" and
>Tasso's Jerusalem. There's also possibly relevant stuff in a text by
>Bacon, STC 1120, but it might be too late for Spenser.
>      Anne P.
>
> > I'm essentially registering agreement with Hannibal, whose research is
> > plenty fresh. We don't know what tunes Sternhold's original psalms used,
> > though the fact that he doesn't mention them when he describes singing the
> > songs for Edward VI suggests that they were familiar. There are a handful
> > of tunes from Henrician mss that would accommodate Sternhold's meter,
> > although the admittedly scant sources don't suggest that it was the
> > dominant meter for popular song (as it became later in the century). But,
> > as Hannibal points out, popular music is the hardest to document before
> > printing, and by the time the ballad trade really took off in England,
> > Sternhold et al were already being very widely sung.
> >
> > As for his sources, what little I've done so far shows that he pretty
> > obviously worked from the Great Bible version and the Vulgate but not any
> > contemporary psalms, and that while some of his interpretation is
> > eccentric, it is also frequently polemically Protestant. If it occurred to
> > him that his songs might have a liturgical use, he doesn't give any hint
> > of
> > it in what he published; his paraphrases are much closer in spirit to the
> > other Henrician and Edwardian Protestant paraphrases and "epitomies" in
> > prose intended for private reading and (naturally) for reinforcing the
> > lessons of the Reformation. The same goes, by the way, for the seven
> > psalms
> > Hopkins published in Edwardian  editions. The first time that I can
> > demonstrate congregational singing of metrical psalms in English is in the
> > exile communities of Germany and Geneva (though if anyone has earlier
> > evidence, I would be very grateful to know!!!).
> > Beth
> >
> >
> >
> > At 08:36 AM 2/23/2005 -0500, you wrote:
> >>Beth's explorations into Sternhold and Hopkins are perhaps fresher than
> >>mine, but I'm not sure there is much evidence to suggest continuity
> >>between English Catholic liturgies and Sternhold and Hopkins (though I'm
> >>all in favor of the cultural continuity argument generally).  Sternhold's
> >>Psalms begin with versions of the Psalms he knew.  I haven't done a
> >>detailed study, but, since there is no evidence he knew any Hebrew, he
> >>probably used some combination of the Vulgate, Coverdale (in prose for
> >> the
> >>Great Bible -- not the metrical versions that were quickly suppressed),
> >>and perhaps German translations -- there were others kicking around, but
> >>much less popular.  Subsequent additions to The Whole Booke more or less
> >>follow Sternhold's practice.  The tunes that were included came from
> >>various places (many of them French -- see Robin Leaver on this), but,
> >>again, do not represent borrowings from any Catholic tradition.  I think
> >>that in this case there are good reasons to argue for a substantial break
> >>with earlier liturgical practice, confirming the traditional association
> >>of metrical Psalms with Protestants.  The most obvious references to this
> >>are in Shakespeare (Falstaff and Autolycus). Anne's comments about
> >> "Geneva
> >>Jigs" points to the real precedent for Sternhold and Hopkins in the
> >>metrical Psalms (and hymns -- there are loads of these in German) of the
> >>continental Protestant churches, translated by Luther, Marot, Beza,
> >> Calvin
> >>and others (Dutch too -- and these may have been sung in London in the
> >>"stranger churches").
> >>
> >>One continuity question that intrigues me is where Sternhold's Common
> >>Meter (what Bottom refers to as "8 and 6") comes from.  We tend to refer
> >>to this as Ballad Meter, but in the sixteenth century it was referred to
> >>as "Sternhold's Meter."  Did Sternhold borrow the form from popular
> >>ballads (following the Lutheran practice of capitalizing on popular
> >>secular cultural forms), or did popular ballads borrow the form of
> >> popular
> >>Psalms?  Given the lateness of many of the sources for the ballads, it is
> >>hard to tell, but it seems an interesting question, especially vis-a-vis
> >>the relations between sacred and secular in post-Reformation culture.
> >>
> >>Hannibal
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>At 09:57 PM 2/22/05 -0500, you wrote:
> >>>As a former choir boy in the Church of Rome, has any of you thought of
> >>>going back to the sources of Sternhold and Hopkins?  You are all
> >>> thinking
> >>>of a split between Medieval and what you now call Early Modern.  I see
> >>>continuity as well as change.Why not try an historical track? tpr
> >>>
> >>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>From: Beth Quitslund <[log in to unmask]>
> >>>Date: Tuesday, February 22, 2005 7:19 pm
> >>>Subject: Re: Spenser's songbook
> >>>
> >>> > I'd love to see evidence of hymns not included in S-H, Anne. _The
> >>> > WholeBook of Psalmes Collected into English Meeter" (S-H) contains
> >>> > about a dozen
> >>> > other scriptural songs traditionally used in the liturgy (Te Deum,
> >>> > NuncDimittis, multiple versions of the 10 Commandments, etc.), but
> >>> > I don't know
> >>> > of any other hymnal not made up of metrical psalms. The exception is
> >>> > Coverdale's translation of a bunch of Lutheran hymns and psalm
> >>> > adaptations,but I don't know of any evidence that its single
> >>> > edition was ever used in C
> >>> > of E liturgy. Similarly, no edition of metrical psalms besides S-H
> >>> > wentinto multiple editions (that I know of) in the sixteenth or early
> >>> > seventeenth centuries. (Sandys's psalms are a sort-of exception,
> >>> > becausethey were partly recycled in another volume, but they were
> >>> > not intended for
> >>> > congregational singing.) By contrast, S-H went through more than 500
> >>> > editions before 1696, was frequently bound with the BCP, and can
> >>> > be shown
> >>> > to have been owned by a significant number of parish churches in
> >>> > the late
> >>> > sixteenth century. These psalms were sung to actual tunes, with or
> >>> > withoutorgan accompaniment, not chanted in the sense that the
> >>> > Anglican Church now
> >>> > chants psalms. Most cathedrals and collegiate churches retained a
> >>> > choir to
> >>> > sing choral anthems, but if Spenser sang at church the odds are it
> >>> > was from
> >>> > S-H.
> >>> >
> >>> > Beth
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > At 03:48 PM 2/22/2005 -0500, you wrote:
> >>> > >This seems a more complex matter than it might appear and would
> >>> > depend, I
> >>> > >suspect, in part on where the church was (uniformity was desired but
> >>> > >policing was hard). Sternhold and Hopkins were often published
> >>> > with music,
> >>> > >though, bound with prayerbooks, and there are so many references to
> >>> > >psalm-singing as lively and indeed rambuctious that it's hard to
> >>> > believe>mere chanting would do it. And many churches had organs. A
> >>> > number of
> >>> > >modern hymn tunes go back to the 16th century ("Old Hundredth" for
> >>> > >example). Some people objected to any music at all in church, of
> >>> > course,>and found using the organ a prophane and yea abhominable
> >>> > humane tradition
> >>> > >that would stink in the nostrils of the Almighty but many others
> >>> (see
> >>> > >George Wither) ardently defended music in church, citing David's
> >>> > cure of
> >>> > >Saul and much else. The question is a) when and if the
> >>> > congregation in
> >>> > >church sang along and b) when and if this was nothing but psalms.
> >>> > I don't
> >>> > >have my evidence ready to hand, but I'm pretty sure I've seen
> >>> > evidence>(not in the official BCP but in related texts) of
> >>> > congregational hymn--not
> >>> > >just psalm--singing. Cranmer himself, if memory serves (and it often
> >>> > >doesn't), wrote somebody that he was working on translating the
> >>> > old "Salva
> >>> > >feste dies" (the one Sullivan was to set to music and that is
> >>> > still sung).
> >>> > >     My favorite piece of evidence that psalms could be "Geneva
> >>> > jigs and
> >>> > >Beza's ballads"--not quite the same issue as congregational singing,
> >>> > >to be sure--is a court case in Geneva in which some young people
> >>> were
> >>> > >accused of dancing and swore to the judges that no, they had been
> >>> > >singing psalms and got so carried away that they hopped up and down
> >>> > >and made the people beneath *think* they were dancing. That's
> >>> > zeal and
> >>> > >enthusiasm.
> >>> > >     My hymnal has a number of hymns going back to the
> >>> > Renaissance; good to
> >>> > >read when things get dull.
> >>> > >      Roger Kuin knows a lot about the BCP. Maybe he knows about
> >>> > hymns,>too. I bet a boolean search on EEBO for "hymns" or "hymnes"
> >>> and
> >>> > >"sing" and "psalms/psalmes" would turn up something interesting.
> >>> > >Anne.
> >>> > >
> >>> > > > Many thanks to all those who chimed in on feminine rhymes.
> >>> Another
> >>> > > > source of such rhymes that occurred to me last week is
> >>> > medieval Latin
> >>> > > > poetry, where fem. rhyme is used all the time. When I first
> >>> > started> > thinking about it, the examples that came to mind were
> >>> > hymns, and I
> >>> > > > began to wonder whether Spenser would have known any of them.
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > This raises a broader question. What did Spenser sing in
> >>> > church? Last
> >>> > > > year my parents gave me something called Shakespeare's
> >>> > Songbook, by Ross
> >>> > > > Duffin. It's great for the songs that Shakespeare refers to in
> >>> his
> >>> > > > plays, but light on hymns. Most of the hymns that I know were
> >>> > written in
> >>> > > > the nineteenth and late eighteenth centuries. Did Elizabethans
> >>> > even sing
> >>> > > > hymns, or did they just chant Psalms?
> >>> > > >
> >>> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> > --------
> >>> > > > Dr. David Wilson-Okamura          [log in to unmask]
> >>> > http://virgil.org> > English Department, East Carolina University,
> >>> > Greenville, NC 27858-4889
> >>> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> > --------
> >>> > > >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > ==============================================
> >>> >
> >>> > Beth Quitslund
> >>> > Assistant Professor of English
> >>> >
> >>> > Department of English
> >>> > Ohio University
> >>> > Athens, OH 45701
> >>> > phone: (740) 593-2829
> >>> > FAX: (740) 593-2818
> >>> >
> >>
> >>Hannibal Hamlin
> >>Assistant Professor of English
> >>The Ohio State University
> >>1680 University Drive
> >>Mansfield, OH 44906
> >>419-755-4277
> >>[log in to unmask]
> >
> >
> >
> > ==============================================
> >
> > Beth Quitslund
> > Assistant Professor of English
> >
> > Department of English
> > Ohio University
> > Athens, OH 45701
> > phone: (740) 593-2829
> > FAX: (740) 593-2818
> >



==============================================

Beth Quitslund
Assistant Professor of English

Department of English
Ohio University
Athens, OH 45701
phone: (740) 593-2829
FAX: (740) 593-2818