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POETRYETC  2005

POETRYETC 2005

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Subject:

Re: down with the down with poetry crowd

From:

Rebecca Seiferle <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry and poetics <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 21 Jan 2005 13:26:14 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (110 lines)

>> Oh, I said it from a sort of overview of this thread, making logical
>> extensions
>> from the various arguments presented here.
>
>Hey, isn't that a definition of a straw man? You're certainly not taking
>issue with anything I said or argued for, even though in your mails you're
>quoting my posts.

Well, I have taken issue with a few things that you've said in this, but in this
case, no, I wasn't, hence my explaining it as a 'sort of overview' rather than an
argumentative point directed at you. In these email conversations on these
threads, there's often an engagement with a number of directions, glances
toward the Bernstein article, etc, and hence my overview glance here. If I had
meant it in debating class style as a point at you, I wouldn't have bothered to
explain above.

In general I am suggesting something rather more nuanced,
>and considerably less either/or than you are suggesting.

ah, I could have said this myself. See above.

As for 'pure,' that's a matter of terminology, I think, you seem to be thinking
of 'unsullied,' the moral connotations of the term; I was rather thinking in terms
of pure concentrates versus dilutions "watered-down" watered-down whiskey
versus the straight stuff.

In the general fundamentals of this, I don't think we're in basic disagreement,

best,

Rebecca
---- Original message ----
>Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2005 05:03:55 +1100
>From: Alison Croggon <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: down with the down with poetry crowd
>To: [log in to unmask]
>
>On 22/1/05 3:22 AM, "Rebecca Seiferle" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Oh, I said it from a sort of overview of this thread, making logical
>> extensions
>> from the various arguments presented here.
>
>Hey, isn't that a definition of a straw man? You're certainly not taking
>issue with anything I said or argued for, even though in your mails you're
>quoting my posts. In general I am suggesting something rather more
nuanced,
>and considerably less either/or than you are suggesting. I was not arguing
>that poetry ought not to exist in universities; as Mark recognised, I was
>quoting a rather bitter joke of a friend of mine, familiar with both the
>considerable problems and, as a gifted teacher, the advantages, of having
>poetry in curricula. My friend was speaking about teaching literature
>rather than creative writing courses, which of course exist here, but in
>nothing like the dominant place that MFA do in the US. I even know what it's
>like to enjoy the stimulation and privilege of being in a university
>environment. But I don't believe it's undilutedly a good thing.
>
>> Bernstein argues
>> against various venues that now exist for poets and poetry on the grounds
that
>> they 'water it down', i.e. dilute its purity
>
>Carl Bernstein was not arguing for uber purity; he said that poetry whose
>main virtue is marked as "accessible" is "a watered down version that lacks
>the cultural edge and the aesthetic sharpness of the best popular and mass
>culture". Which is a considerably different thing to say; watered-down
>refers to blandness as a lack of challenge or intensity, rather than
>"purity" in terms of the sullying of the impure popular. He goes to some
>pains not to diss popular and mass culture, and I think Bernstein's comment
>is acute. I somehow don't think Bernstein would be big on the pure, but am
>ready to stand corrected.
>
>Hi Finnegan
>
>> Well thank goodness the quote itself is better than the platitude of its
>> paraphrase.
>
>> If you went out onto the streets one April and started quizzing people with
>> the question, 'Did you know it was National Poetry Month?', I'm sure
>> you'd be met with mostly blank stares. It's more likely to heighten the
>> consciousness of those who are already somewhat engaged with the literary
>> arts.
>
>Apologies for the platitudinous: I told you I was mostly banal. All the
>same, it seems to me the corralling of poetry into special protected poetry
>places is more "damselising" than wanting it to be exciting and vital and
>more embedded in people's lives. But - if National Poetry Month doesn't
>make the average woman in the street more aware of poetry, then why bother
>with it? I'm with the Mark Weiss Mermaid Tavern model , poofy shirts and
>all; so much more fun than the earnest "have a dose of poetry, it's good for
>you" thing. (Also, I have never liked Mother's Day, although I put up with
>it).
>
>I write popular literature. I take it very seriously and work hard to write
>it well, but I don't for a moment think it offers the same experiences as
>reading poetry. Or writing it, for that matter. Poetry offers, as
>Bernstein said, a crucial alternative - different from, not "better" than,
>popular culture.
>
>Best
>
>A
>
>
>Alison Croggon
>
>Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com
>Editor, Masthead: http://masthead.net.au
>Home page: http://alisoncroggon.com

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