Again, thanks for everyone's help. I've responded personally to some of 
you. I've only now just realized maybe I should respond to the group as 
a whole. This project was in danger of going away because I couldn't 
find enough background information. I agree the work at Little Big Horn 
was good. I used that as source information when as a teacher's 
assistant I had to give a lecture on what I called the "Dakota Ojibwe 
Conflict."

  In response to the French fur trade the people who would become the  
Ojibwe  began to organize into a tribal organization. They began to 
move east. They came into what is now Minnesota ('smoke on the water') 
from the north by east. As a result the people we now call the Dakota, 
or Sioux (that latter is a pejorative term amongst the Dakota) were 
pushed south. The border between these two peoples stabilized along the 
Minnesota River (on which I live), and the area along the river turned 
into a "debatable zone" or no man's land. Both tribes would hunt in 
this area, but it was a risky proposition. Hunting parties were always 
in danger of being ambushed. That was the background information for 
the lecture. Really it was supposed to be a discussion about how we 
could use archeology to find out more about the conflict (like what 
kinds of fortified villages were constructed). It just so happened that 
there was a Dakota Indian in the audience, and he didn't like some of 
the things I was saying. In particular he didn't like it much when I 
argued that the Dakota were pushed to the south. He said "we wanted to 
go there anyways." That's one reason I decided to become more 
interested in European sites, like French and British (and Spanish if I 
ever move to the south west), because it's a much less sensitive area. 
I'm less likely to be called a "grave robber" then. Currently, as I 
said to someone else on this group, we've located a French fort through 
geological survey methods (mostly through resistivity). On the high 
resolution maps we've also found something that looks like it might be 
a graveyard. Since it's probably French, the local Native Americans 
don't care about that.

I envy the fact that in Europe people seem to be less sensitive to 
these kinds of things. Of course I'm speaking from ignorance since I 
don't live over there, and I've been to England on only two occasions 
(which I enjoyed, esp. the ale).

Jorel


On Dec 6, 2005, at 2:54 AM, CARLISLE, Phil wrote:

> Hi Jorel
> Glad I could help. I had a quick look at the books again last night 
> and the one I mentioned on Fort Mifflin seems to have quite a lot of 
> history from 1660 onwards around the whole Delaware river area so 
> might be useful although I appreciate that it's still a bit eastern 
> for you.
>
> If you're interested in other areas of 'the new world' then try to get 
> hold of a copy of 'Bermuda Forts' it's by Edward Harris (of Harris 
> matrix fame) and has lot's of archaeological details from excavations 
> he's carried out on forts in Bermuda, many of which will be 
> contemporaneous with the ones you're looking at/into.
> And I think I'm right in saying that the oldest extant British fort 
> anywhere on that side of the Atlantic (or close enough!) is in 
> Bermuda.
>
> Oh and what about the fort at Jamestown. I seems to recall some work 
> done there.
>
> I envy the fact that because your 'European' archaeology is so young 
> it's really interesting.
> Over here it tends to be Prehistory and Roman with a smattering of 
> Medieval and some Industrial. It's only since the excellent work you 
> guys did on Little Bighorn that this side of the pond have started 
> looking at more modern areas of archaeology, particularly military.
>
> Anyway I look forward to reading postings from you in the future.
> Phil
>
>
>
> Phil Carlisle
> Data Standards Supervisor
> National Monuments Record Centre
> Kemble Drive
> Swindon
> SN2 2GZ
> +44 (0)1793 414824
>
>
> The information contained within this e-mail is confidential and may 
> be privileged. It is intended for the addressee only. If you have 
> received the e-mail in error, please inform the sender and delete it 
> from your system. The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed to 
> anyone else or copied without the sender's consent.
>
> Any views and opinions expressed in this message are those of the 
> author and do not necessarily reflect those of English Heritage. 
> English Heritage will not take any responsibility for the views of the 
> author.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jorel Jackson [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: 05 December 2005 23:39
> To: CARLISLE, Phil
> Subject: Re: British and French fortifications on the American frontier
>
> Hello, thanks for your help! My searches haven't turned up much. I've
> started with Tom Pocock's book 'Battle for Empire The Very First World
> War.' I've heard of Vauban, the others you listed I've never heard of.
> As for the forgotten (over here anyways) War of 1812, I won't argue
> with you too much since you got the White House. Our frigates gave a
> good account of themselves, and what we like to remember most is The
> Battle of New Orleans. Since all my ancestors came from England I'm
> happy to say we've gotten on pretty good since then.
>
> We have recently located a French fort in Worthington Minnesota via a
> geological survey. I've worked the site on three occasions. Occupation
> there goes back to paleolithic times. We haven't touched the fort yet,
> because the people I've been working with are more interested in
> prehistoric stuff. We did find an anomalous cluster of stones, and
> we're not sure what those are for.
>
> Again thanks for your help!
>
> Jorel
>
> On Dec 5, 2005, at 8:51 AM, CARLISLE, Phil wrote:
>
>> Hi Jorel
>> A few books that might be useful all of which I bought in the states a
>> few years ago are:
>>
>> 'The Great Warpath: British Military Sites from Albany to Crown Point'
>> by David Starbuck which includes archaeological excavations (if I
>> remember rightly) about British sites from the Seven years War (your
>> French and Indian Wars, King Williams war etc.) although they're all
>> in New York State/American-Candadian border.
>>
>> Most of the forts of that time are star forts and indeed this is the
>> predominant form for much of the next 70 years in the States - the
>> forts in New York follow this style (see the base of the Statue of
>> Liberty which is a star fort from the War of 1812 although in stone
>> rather than the turf of Tinconderoga and Crown point)
>>
>> There's also a book called 'Fort Mifflin in Pennsylvania' which I've
>> got but I think that's later in date (I've got a thing about the War
>> of 1812 when we whooped your asses - although you call it a draw!)
>>
>> And try 'Fire and stone: The science of fortress warfare, 1660-1860'
>> by Christopher Duffy for more general fortifications including the
>> granddaddy of all fortification engineers, Vauban - whom we Europeans
>> learnt so much from.
>>
>> Hope these help.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> Phil Carlisle
>> Data Standards Supervisor
>> National Monuments Record Centre
>> Kemble Drive
>> Swindon
>> SN2 2GZ
>> +44 (0)1793 414824
>>
>>
>> The information contained within this e-mail is confidential and may
>> be privileged. It is intended for the addressee only. If you have
>> received the e-mail in error, please inform the sender and delete it
>> from your system. The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed to
>> anyone else or copied without the sender's consent.
>>
>> Any views and opinions expressed in this message are those of the
>> author and do not necessarily reflect those of English Heritage.
>> English Heritage will not take any responsibility for the views of the
>> author.
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Military archaeology and architecture
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jorel Jackson
>> Sent: 05 December 2005 13:14
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: British and French fortifications on the American frontier
>>
>> Hello, I just joined this list. I'm a U.S. graduate student at a
>> university in Minnesota. I've been studying archeology for the past 
>> two
>> years. Most of my work has been with American Indian sites, but I've
>> always been interested in military history. When I told one of my
>> professors this he gave me the idea that I could do something for my
>> thesis about French and British forts on the American frontier. I 
>> can't
>> find a lot of literature on this, like what these forts looked like,
>> and what their remains might look like today. Once there was a French
>> fort in this area (Lesueur, Minnesota), but no one is sure exactly
>> where it was. It might be interesting if I could find this fort. Is
>> there anyone in this group that knows anything about the kind of
>> fortifications that would have been built in this area during the time
>> period we Americans know as the French IndianWar?
>>
>> Jorel Jackson
>>
>