I agree with Crispin on this one. Its only really the tool providers
that need to understand the data format. A good example is MS Word.
Nobody knows the doc internal format, yet everybody works with Word
documents without any problem. Isn't this the same for MIDAS?
Ian
-----Original Message-----
From: The Forum for Information Standards in Heritage (FISH)
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Crispin Flower
Sent: 23 November 2005 10:38
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [FISH] Feedback on the MIDAS schema
Hi Tim and Nigel
I definitely agree more awareness raising is needed, particularly
engaging real-life situations like the recent Lised Buildings data.
However you probably don't need to worry about this too much - as
archaeologists and HER officers you should not really have to learn
about the intricacies of xml/gml beyond being familiar with their broad
character and purpose. (unless you really want to!!) Your HER software
should be able to read in and write out xml/gml for the purposes of data
exchange and archiving, but you don't need to worry about the gory
details unless you are actually writing the systems.
This leaves you more time to sort out the really difficult issues to do
with HER business practices and service delivery in areas where data is
important (e.g. agri-environment schemes, planning), i.e. what data is
being produced/used where, what is needed by your "clients", what should
be exchanged for what purpose, how does it relate to existing data, etc
etc, which in my experience are usually much more difficult than the
technical problems.
best wishes
Crispin
PS most HERs (i.e. those using HBSMR) are already or will imminently be
(depending on version) geared up for XML (including the LB import).
-----Original Message-----
From: Pratt, Nigel [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 23 November 2005 10:02
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [FISH] Feedback on the MIDAS schema
Tim
I am also out of my depth here. This is taking data standards in a whole
new direction which I haven't been able to keep up with. To be honest, I
have been adopting the 'ostrich head in sand' position as I don't have
the time to devote to investigating, let alone understanding, all of
this.
If I remember rightly, the results of the EH sponsored GIS questionnaire
circulated last week, contained the statistic that 80% of SMRs are not
geared up for XML and yet the Listed Building data, after sitting in
EH's system for 10 years, appears in this format. Worse still, I bet
that if this survey was extended to district authorities, who I know are
also currently puzzling over the disk, it would be nearer 95%.
There is definitely a knowledge gap between those engaged in getting the
data out, who seem to have leapt ahead, and most of us at the 'coal
face' engaged in local authority archaeology.
Yes, training is definitely required!
Nigel
Nigel Pratt
Historic Data Manager
Archaeology & Historic Buildings
Environment Department
Hampshire County Council
The Castle, Winchester
SO23 8UD
Tel: 01962 84 6736 Fax: 01962 847055
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
www.hants.gov.uk/environment/historic-environment/
-----Original Message-----
From: The Forum for Information Standards in Heritage (FISH)
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of GRUBB, Tim
Sent: 23 November 2005 09:27
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [FISH] Feedback on the MIDAS schema
Hi
In response to the recent posts on xml and gml could I put feelers out
to see if there is anyone else, like me, who clearly needs some training
in both of these?
From the discussions there are obviously a number of SMR/HER officers
and heritage professionals who are, with good reason, pushing for these
standards to be adopted. However, unless it is just me being dense
(which is entirely possible) the assumption that those of us outside of
this core group fully understand XML and now GML seems dangerous -
especially given the importance of the use of xml. I for one have not
even been able to load the xml Listed Building data even with the help
of the county's IT support.
I wonder if this is something that the ADS or even Oxford could run a
course on? I don't want to be left behind on this but, at the moment, I
have no access to training in it.
Thanks
Tim
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Tim Grubb - SMR Officer
> Gloucestershire County Council Archaeology Service Environment Dept.
> Shire Hall
> Gloucester
> GL1 2TH
>
> Tel: (01452) 425705
> Fax: (01452) 425356
> Email: [log in to unmask]
> Web: http://www.gloucestershire.gov.uk/archaeology/
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
-----Original Message-----
From: The Forum for Information Standards in Heritage (FISH)
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Tyler Bell
Sent: 22 November 2005 21:27
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [FISH] Feedback on the MIDAS schema
Dear Ian et al.,
I'm glad to see an active interest in MIDAS XML and MIDAS spatial.
I'll note first that GML was considered for this purpose, but rejected,
in part because it was believed at the time to bring a burden of
overhead and complexity with it; we (the MIDAS XML group) opted for this
customised approach because it allowed us to capture the required
spatial content without becoming overly complex. Of equal importance, it
was specifically tailored to suit both the granular nature of HER
spatial data, and the the relatively basic level of XML -- and
particularly spatial XML -- acumen in HERs and their parent authorities.
To be fair, I would not go so far as to say that the approach we have
taken is, as you suggest, proprietary: there is nothing in the schema
that cannot be transformed into GML, and we also endorse the use of
OGC-supported WKT for representing geometry (largely because this format
can be understood by spatial databases without requiring
transformation); lastly, the representation itself was influenced in
part by various components of the the OGC-supported WMS protocol.
Saying that, however, I am keen to stress above all else that I am all
for improving MIDAS XML wherever possible, and especially exploring
alternatives that simultaneously capture the required data, support
extant standards, and make it easier for HERs to use. If this is what
will make the exchange of heritage information more straightforward and
less of a headache for HER officers, then it should certainly be
pursued.
Regards,
Tyler
---
Dr Tyler Bell
Director
Oxford ArchDigital Ltd.
Ian Painter wrote:
> Hi Trevor,
>
> Geography Markup Language (GML) is a standard created by the Open
> Geospatial Consortium (OGC) http://www.opengeospatial.org to allow the
> exchange of geographical information between computer systems.
>
> To start at the beginning, GML is an extension of XML (eXtensible
> Markup Language). XML is a standard defined by the W3C (World Wide Web
> Consortium). XML defines some basic constructs for forming data
> formats such as the idea of a data element, basic types like strings,
> numbers and dates etc. Most importantly, XML defines a standard way of
> adding extensions to XML to make a more specific format. This
> mechanism for defining formats is called XML Schema.
>
> The OGC have used XML Schema to add some geographical concepts to XML.
> So, for example, GML defines the concept of a geographical feature,
> line, point and area geometry and so on. These extensions are
> specified in two XML Schema files, features.xsd and geometry.xsd (XML
> Schema files usually have the ".xsd" file name extension).
>
> However, these are still abstract definitions, and so GML needs to be
> extended further to express the elements relevant to a particular
> dataset. For example, whilst GML says there is such thing as a feature
> a particular format might extend this to say that there is a kind of
> feature called "Road". GML says that features can have geometry
> attributes that are lines, points or areas. The particular format
> might specify that a "Road" has a geometry attribute that is a line. A
> particular format will be specified in one or more XML Schema files
> (".xsd" files). The XML Schema that defines a particular format is
> known as the application schema. The application schema files should
> be supplied by your data provider along with GML data itself.
>
> GML is mature and stable ISO adopted standard (ISO 19136) currently in
> its 3 major iteration, you can find the full (and very detailed) spec
> along with its associated XML Schemas here:
>
> http://opengis.net/gml/
>
> The best resource is simple 6 stage online introduction here:
>
> http://gislounge.com/ucon/ucgmlintro.shtml
>
> Hope this helps
>
> Ian
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: The Forum for Information Standards in Heritage (FISH)
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of REYNOLDS, Trevor
> Sent: 22 November 2005 10:06
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [FISH] Feedback on the MIDAS schema
>
> Ian
>
> Could you give me a quick explanation of GML - I've never heard of it
> before.
>
> Trevor Reynolds
> Collections Registrar, English Heritage, Room 530, 23 Savile Row,
> London W1S 2ET, United Kingdom
> Tel: +44 (0) 20 7973 3482 Fax: +44 (0) 20 7973 3209
>
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: The Forum for Information Standards in Heritage (FISH)
>>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ian Painter
>>Sent: 21 November 2005 17:17
>>To: [log in to unmask]
>>Subject: [FISH] Feedback on the MIDAS schema
>>
>>Hi All,
>>
>>We've had a number of queries from our customers and partners
>
> regarding
>
>>our ability to support the MIDAS schema. Firstly, let me give you a
>>little background. I'm from a company called Snowflake Software and we
>
>
>>specialise in schema aware XML / GML loading and publishing tools. We
>>are a member of the Open Geospatial Consortium and play an active part
>
>
>>in helping develop and promote GML. The MIDAS schemas look great and
>
> its
>
>>great to see XML being published in the heritage field.
>>=====================
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