It's even worse than that in New York. Last night I went to a reading by
Mike Heller and Kathleen Fraser. Almost everyone in the audience was of
their generation. At many of the readings I've gone to in the three months
I've been back in NY I'm the only person significantly older than the
readers, who, like most of their audience, are usually recently graduated
from MFA programs.  I'm not guessing or generalizing--I in fact know the
backgrounds of most of the folks in the relatively small audiences. I
suspect that they're replicating their graduate school experience.

In SF and recently elsewhere there are now monthly readings, advertized and
open to the public, in people's homes. Again, mostly the same age-cohort,
mostly recent MFAs.

In these environments the response range seldom includes discouraging
words. Very cosy, but no challenge.

I want to add one other informal arrangement--the paid,
non-academic-affiliation workshop. An old idea--Muriel Rukeyser ran one in
the late 60s until her death, for instance. It was as I remember all or
mostly women. They chose their teacher from a very large pool, and could
leave at will and choose another such.

William Burroughs, when he first returned from Morocco, taught a class at
New York's City University. At a reading he invited any who wished to sit
in, gratis. It was probably against the rules then, it certainly is now,
and it's usually inforced. But there are lots of options available with a
bit of ingenuity, as there always have been. They're simply less used by
the young than they were before MFAs became a monopoly.

I watched this development for a long time, almost from its beginning.

Mark


At 12:47 PM 2/10/2005, mairead byrne wrote:
>This time I agree with you Mark: though in my case I was usually the
>oldest person in the room, older than the teacher.  There was some
>range of age but most students were in their 20s/early 30s.  My own
>undergraduate students here at RISD have pointed out one value of
>poetry readings that I wasn't alert to: that they bring together
>people of different ages.
>
>Mairead
>
>
>On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:39:27 -0500, Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > That stings, Lawrence. I picked up the phrase from an earlier post.
> Meant it
> > as a stand-in for all the informal environments in which people hone their
> > skills.
> >
> > I understand the need that many have for a structured, non-threatening
> > environment for exchange, given the complexity of their lives.
> >
> > In the US it's become common for groups of writers or would-be writers to
> > form freestanding writers groups. They often serve as an alternative to
> > beery environments like the Mermaid. Many are women-only. The members
> > (regardless of the gender mix of  a given group) usually have day jobs and
> > often children. Some of these groups have gone on for years.
> >
> > Reading groups are also increasingly popular--anything from the latest
> > best-seller to the arcane. For several years in the eighties and early
> > nineties I was in such a group with, among others, Armand Schwerner, Hugh
> > Seidman, the anthropologist Susan Slyomovics, Mike Heller, a bunch of other
> > people. We read Vygotsky, Aztec Poetry, Victor Turner, a lot of other
> > stuff--a book a month. The focus was always on language and practice,
> > however far afield the readings might seem.
> >
> > What I found useful about the reading group is that it brought people of
> > different ages and extremely varied experience and expertise together to
> > discuss their enthusiasms. Willard Gingerich, a scholar and translator of
> > Aztec poetry, for instance, was brought in by a member who knew him.
> >
> > Academic writing programs tend to be less various in their membership.
> > Mairead will probably tell me I'm wrong, but my impression is that most of
> > the students are in their twenties, and usually the only older person
> in the
> > room is the teacher. In informal settings writers have always sharpened
> > their skills and thoughts through contact with their contemporaries,
> but not
> > exclusively. What I've always found exhilarating about non-institutional
> > groups of any kind of artists is the mix of different ages and experiences.
> > In those environments the age-span of one's cohort can be 40 years. Fraught
> > with the same tensions as all friendships, but nonetheless a way in which
> > accumulated wisdom could be passed on.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> > At 10:06 AM 2/10/2005, Lawrence Upton wrote:
> > let's hear it for pub-based apprenticeships in writing
> >
> > L
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask] >
> > To: [log in to unmask] < [log in to unmask]>
> > Date: 10 February 2005 14:59
> > Subject: Re: academic verse PS
> >
> > From: Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask] >
> > To: [log in to unmask] < [log in to unmask]>
> > Date: 10 February 2005 14:59
> > Subject: Re: academic verse PS
> >
> > All graduate education in the US carries with it social cachet,
> certainly as
> > opposed to the older solitary learning and pub-based apprenticeships in
> > writing. I don't know anyone who went for an MFA who didn't see it as a
> > career-builder. Here are a couple of paragraphs from Cornell's site.
> What do
> > you think they imply?
> >
> > Will I be able to get a college or university-level teaching position
> with a
> > Cornell M.F.A. degree?
> >
> > Writers with Cornell M.F.A. degrees and a national publication record have
> > found tenure-track positions at colleges such as the The University of
> > Arizona, the University of California at Santa Cruz, the University of
> > Michigan, the University of Minnesota, University of Montana, Oregon State
> > University, Penn State University, the University of Pittsburgh, Syracuse
> > University, Vanderbilt University, and the University of Wisconsin,. Other
> > Cornell M.F.A.s have found temporary or visiting-writer positions at places
> > such as Boston College, Brown, Bucknell, Colgate, Howard, Stanford, Trinity
> > (Hartford), and Hobart-William Smith.
> > Will I increase my chances of finding a university-level teaching position
> > if I earn both an M.F.A. degree and a Ph.D.?
> >
> > Will I increase my chances of finding a university-level teaching position
> > if I earn both an M.F.A. degree and a Ph.D.?
> >
> > Not necessarily. If you have a Cornell M.F.A. degree and some kind of
> > publication record, there is a good chance you will be competitive when you
> > apply for university or college level teaching positions. If you want to
> > enter the job market as a scholar as well as a creative writer, you might
> > want to earn two degrees.
> >
> > Cornell, by the way, doesn't allow MFA students to teach until their second
> > year, and they are required to take a pedagogy course first.
> >
> > I have no idea what's typical or not--it's not my world. But I certainly
> > hear the stories.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > At 07:21 PM 2/9/2005, you wrote:
> > I'm sort of surprised at your example Mark as the Columbia School of
> > the Arts MFA program is exceptional in not being based in an English
> > Department; it seems more like the School of the Art Institute of
> > Chicago model.  Most MFA students earn their stipends teaching English
> > 101; I'm guessing that the School of the Arts does not offer 101
> > classes.  Interestingly though, the School does offer its students
> > teaching opportunities:
> >
> > "We provide teacher training through the Writer as Teacher seminar and
> > mentoring sessions, and we offer a wide variety of teaching
> > opportunities - on and off campus - through the Division's CA/T
> > program (Columbia Artist/Teachers), open to all Writing students. We
> > prepare students not only for college level teaching, but also for
> > leading workshops in primary and secondary schools and community-based
> > organizations. In addition, the Division offers students the chance to
> > edit, manage, and publish their own national magazine, Columbia: A
> > Journal of Literature and Art, as well as other informal publications.
> > Students also curate two reading series."
> >
> > I haven't yet found the part about the guaranteed social cachet and
> > middle-class income.
> >
> > Also it would be interesting to compare how MFA programs advertise
> > their financial offers in journals such as American Poetry Review,
> > versus website reservations such as you cite.  I think there is an
> > increasing tendency, with PhD programs anyway, to make a point of
> > indicating the difficulty of the job market and to warn prospective
> > candidates officially at point of entry.  It's all very double-edged.
> >
> > Mairead
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 18:05:56 -0500, Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> > > This from the Columbia School of the Arts website. I'm assuming that the
> > > situation is no better elsewhere--I suspect that it's in fact worse at
> > less
> > > well-endowed schools.
> > >
> > > >Because of the limited availability of University aid, the
> limitations of
> > > >federal programs, and the varying costs that individual students incur,
> > it
> > > >is not always possible to meet each student's demonstrated need. In
> > > >addition, the School seeks to ensure that students who rely heavily on
> > > >loans to meet their need do not incur such indebtedness that they
> will be
> > > >unable to manage repayment following their graduation. Therefore, we
> > > >strongly encourage students to explore all options actively, even before
> > > >their acceptance into the School, in order to develop a
> comprehensive and
> > > >realistic plan to support the costs of their graduate study. Please be
> > > >aware that fellowship offers are not made to all admitted students, even
> > > >those requesting consideration for financial aid. The average awards
> that
> > > >are offered rarely exceed half the cost of tuition. Incoming
> students are
> > > >generally notified of fellowship awards with their acceptance letter.
> > Most
> > > >students are eligible for the maximum in Stafford loans.
> > >
> > > The financial aid section goes on at length.
> > >
> > > The interest on student loans is currently 6%.
> > >
> > > Columbia estimates fees at $35,000 per year and living expenses at
> > $17,430.
> > >
> > > At 05:34 PM 2/9/2005, you wrote:
> > > >Agreeing and disagreeing with Mark:
> > > >
> > > >I've had experience of 3 (excluding the MFA programs not dealing with
> > > >poetry, e.g., at Rhode Island School of Design where I now teach).
> > > >The great majority of students in the MFA programs I have knowledge of
> > > >do not pay fees but work as teaching assistants for stipends between
> > > >$10,000 and $14,000 (my figures are  4-10 years old).  I agree with
> > > >Mark to some extent in his analogy with the dole.  I wrote 2 plays, a
> > > >short book, and a lot of bad poems on the dole in my twenties (but the
> > > >minute I got married I was cut off without mercy: I wasn't even
> > > >eligible for Fas schemes, Ireland's other training ground for artists.
> > > >  It took me a hell of a long time to recover from the shock of being
> > > >cut off the dole -- so long I think they had revised the policy on
> > > >married women being ineligible for assistance).  The dole has made
> > > >life possible for so many artists in Ireland, to a point, but there's
> > > >not much dole in America.  MFA programs may be a 2-4 year rather
> > > >stimulating surrogate dole experience.  Time to write.  I found it
> > > >very valuable.
> > > >
> > > >I don't really think Mark's example of John Clare as germane.  I think
> > > >for a lot of poets the questions of how to be a parent, how to be a
> > > >citizen, how to be a useful member of a community, how to work at what
> > > >one is good at: these are real enough questions.  I don't identify
> > > >that strongly with John Clare.
> > > >
> > > >I don't agree either that an MFA purports to guarantee social cachet
> > > >and a middle-class income: I've never heard that claim at least.
> > > >
> > > >And I wouldn't ask either Gertrude Stein or Andre Breton's opinion
> > > >about cooking cabbage.  And if anyone attempted to discuss such a
> > > >subject with me at a social gathering I would walk away.
> > > >
> > > >Mairead
> > > >
> > > >On Sun, 6 Feb 2005 10:59:38 -0500, Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>
> > wrote:
> > > > > I'm always hesitant to post to Britpo because I'm acutely aware that
> > its
> > > > > value, certainly for me, is that it's not dominated by USians. But I
> > > > think I
> > > > > can be helpful in this instance, as I've watched with increasing
> > dismay the
> > > > > results of the academicization of the arts in the US.
> > > > >
> > > > > The topic comes up from time to time on all poetry lists. Usually any
> > > > > critique of the status quo is met by an extraordinary degree of
> > evasiveness
> > > > > or hostility, as a threat to the daily bread, or at least the
> sense of
> > > > moral
> > > > > rectitude, of many on the list.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's a bit of what I posted last month to Poetryetc, minus the
> parts
> > that
> > > > > are too referential to the context of that discussion. I posted
> > something
> > > > > like the first paragraph to britpo earlier this week, but there's
> > plenty of
> > > > > fresh meat beyond.
> > > > >
> > > > > Several things here. First, in the mouths of poets of my kind and
> > > >generation
> > > > > "academic" has nothing to do with intellectual; it
> > > >was, from the
> > > >50s into
> > > > > the 70s, a convenient name for the then mainstream, which
> > > >became
> > > >what
> > > > > Silliman calls "the school of quietude," despite the fact
> > > >that then as
> > > >now
> > > > > many non-quietudiness types, like Doug, held university positions.
> > > >One
> > > >could
> > > > > even be an acadmic poet without ever passing through the gates
> > > > > of
> > > >a
> > > >university.
> > > >
> > > >The larger issue is, I think, not how some poets make a
> > > > > living and how
> > > >much
> > > >time it may take away from their writing, but the
> > > > > process of
> > > >professionalization and homogenization at work in MFA programs.
> > > > > The
> > > >result,
> > > >across the entire spectrum, has been a patholgical degree
> > > > > of
> > > >predictability--MFA-trained Language poets write more like
> > > > > Language
> > > >poets
> > > >than their langpo teachers, who managed to become poets
> > > > > without the
> > > >benefit of
> > > >several years of workshops, for instance. And the
> > > > > same is true for the
> > > >endless string of suburban poets filling the designated
> > > > > poetry spaces in
> > > >the New Yorkeror Poetry.
> > > >
> > > >What gets attenuated is the
> > > > > discovery of craft and its use as a tool for
> > > >discovering the world, absent
> > > > > any experience working in the world beyond
> > > >the schools.
> > > >
> > > >There's of course
> > > > > an enormous ambivalence built into this. I'm aware when
> > > >I
> > > >publish books that
> > > > > if they don't sell well to university libraries and
> > > >to
> > > >MFAs they won't sell.
> > > > > And I also think that it's great that you and
> > > >others
> > > >don't have to herd
> > > > > goats. The problem is that with every graduating
> > > >class
> > > >there are more
> > > > > half-baked late adolescents licensed to call themselves
> > > >poets, nine tenths
> > > > > of whom will never write anything even mildly useful,
> > > >who expect to be able
> > > > > to muzzle up to the trough and teach yet another
> > > >class how to write
> > > > > well-behaved poems of whatever kind, and mediocrity
> > > >becomes progressively
> > > > > the norm.
> > > >
> > > >Years ago, when I applied to the MacDowell Colony my friend
> > > > > Richard
> > > >Elman,
> > > >who taught in the Columbia then-proto-MFA program, wrote
> > > > > a
> > > >recommendation
> > > >for me, which he let me read. I was struck by the phrase
> > > > > "though he
> > > >is
> > > >self-taught as a poet..." I told him that wasn't true--I knew
> > > > > dozens
> > > >of
> > > >poets and learned from several, I'd run reading series', edited
> > > > > a
> > > >magazine,
> > > >published my first book, read endlessly, etc. "Listen," he
> > > >said,
> > > > > "of course it's bullshit.
> > > >But it will get you in." It did.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >OK, now back to
> > > > > this list. To the extent that the world needs poets at all it doesn't
> > need
> > > > > them mass-produced, and we could certainly do without most of the
> > > > blathering
> > > > > of licensed 25 year olds, who now publish each other and promote each
> > > > > other's work from the classroom or profit-making journals or
> > publishing
> > > > > houses for which the MFA is an entry requirement for employment. And
> > > > what do
> > > > > we do with all the tenured poets who would have stopped writing if
> > they
> > > > > hadn't found a sustainable career as poets because they wouldn't have
> > been
> > > > > sufficiently called to keep on? Someone recently commented something
> > to the
> > > > > effect (forgive me for garbling) that everyone's a poet at 20, at 40
> > it's a
> > > > > different matter. Yes, but the rewards of the current system means
> > that
> > > > > those who take the poetry career track at 20 are decreasingly tested
> > as
> > > > they
> > > > > approach maturity, and many remain unaware that the making of poetry
> > > > > requires constant internal testing and questioning. Within the
> > universities
> > > > > a poet at 20 is likely to be calling himself a poet at 40.
> > > > > Since my return to New York from the wilds of San Diego I've found
> > > > myself at
> > > > > several gatherings of young MFAs. They compared career notes and
> > nothing
> > > > > else. When I was their age, after the requisite gossip and flirtation
> > what
> > > > > got talked about was poetry, and information about each of our latest
> > > > > enthusiasms was passed about.  Ties between older and younger poets
> > were
> > > > > forged that acted as a sort of apprenticeship.
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm aware that one of the arguments for the MFA is that it levels the
> > > > > playing field--presumably even the occasional student too poor to
> > > > afford the
> > > > > monstrously high fees (in the tens of thousands of pounds a year)
> > > > charged in
> > > > > the US gets admitted on scholarship, and aspiring poets from
> > > > > poetically-impoverished places are spared the expenditure of energy
> > and
> > > > risk
> > > > > needed to make contact with other writers (in exchange for having
> > their
> > > > > focus sharply restricted), whether through epistolary brashness or
> > actually
> > > > > moving to say NY or San Francisco. But the reality on the ground,
> even
> > more
> > > > > in Britain than in the US, is that these days a John Clare without an
> > MFA
> > > > > would not be condemned to destitution--he'd live in council housing,
> > be
> > > > > treated by the national health service, and feed himself either
> from a
> > > > > disability pension, or, in the case of those not so incapacitated as
> > Clare,
> > > > > earn a minor but sufficient living, under modern rules of employment,
> > > > > complete with vacation time that in the US is for most people only a
> > dream.
> > > > >
> > > > > What the MFA purports to guarantee (and there are far too many
> MFAs in
> > the
> > > > > US to make that claim more than a cruel joke) is social cachet and a
> > middle
> > > > > class income.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mark
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > At 08:18 AM 2/6/2005, cris cheek wrote:
> > > > > Hi Tim,
> > > > >
> > > > > sorry. I didn't think it defensiveness on my part. More an
> offering of
> > > > > a conundrum, which sought to muddy the waters so that actual work
> > could
> > > > > enter the frame of discussion by example. I did want to get to names
> > to
> > > > > try to understand who was actually being referred to. Although I'll
> > > > > fully accept the charge of tired listing. I was, obviously wrongly,
> > > > > wondering if a conflation of working in academia and teaching
> criteria
> > > > > developed through personal practice might not be the point of
> > > > > conflation. Clearly, as in my own example, the majority of those on
> > > > > that list had lengthy histories of practice before teaching, although
> > > > > many also studied as undergraduates when young. The lists were quite
> > > > > deliberately intended to include some 'ringers' and deploy
> > > > > inconsistencies in order to find out to whom the mesh between
> academic
> > > > > verse and avant &c was referring. Also to include for example two
> > > > > generations of those broadly considered lang-po in the US context and
> > > > > whatever (linguistically innovative if that works) likewise in the
> > > > > British ones.
> > > > >
> > > > > I do agree that the grounds from which many newer, younger (whatever)
> > > > > poets are emerging are creative writing courses and their orbital
> > > > > activities in further education. Many of the latter are now in
> > > > > universities (on both sides of the pond) -  and they are nothing if
> > not
> > > > > quick to spot financial opportunities (the universities i mean).
> > > > > Creative Writing courses have become a cash cow and increased in
> > number
> > > > > over the past few years dramatically. I'm not saying this is a good
> > > > > thing per se either, but it is undeniably so. Generally, which of
> > > > > course i use advisedly, many of those who are graduating from these
> > > > > courses are going on into MA and even PhD pursuits.
> > > > >
> > > > > It *does mean that poets have been acculturated to producing critical
> > > > > materials and reflexive writing in close relation to or even as part
> > of
> > > > > their emergent writing practice. So critical tools, vocabularies,
> > > > > perspectives, strategies (from philosophy, literature, cultural
> > > > > studies, performance studies, media studies, bio-informatics . . .)
> > are
> > > > > becoming integral to a poet's experience of language. Reading and
> > > > > Writing both are certainly changing and with the growing number going
> > > > > on into further education the readership is changing also.
> > > > >
> > > > > One reason, perhaps, why taste tzars such as Don Patterson are
> getting
> > > > > publicly jittery is that the texts available for further
> education are
> > > > > becoming increasingly numerous from those kinds of poets whose
> > > > > practices and critical perspectives are lang-po and ling-inno-po
> > (among
> > > > > the many variant po in evidence) grounded, partly since it is those
> > > > > poetries whose poetics most form an energisiing mesh with other
> > > > > critical discourses as listed in brackets above. You know, it's
> pretty
> > > > > simple. To whom is one going to refer to and to differ from (classic
> > > > > avant-garde strategies). That does accept the existence of quite
> > > > > differing readerships, but that's surely nothing new. What might be
> > > > > warranted is a kind of new punk poetry to counter too much of the
> > > > > dominance from today's scriptoria.
> > > > >
> > > > > Being on such courses do allow for reading of poetries that offer
> more
> > > > > resistance and are less easily absorbed (PERHAPS, perhaps).  Many
> > > > > readers, not allowed such luxury of shared interpretations
> (outside of
> > > > > the experience of belonging to a book group) cannot give over their
> > > > > waking hours to such sustained mulling (perhaps, perhaps).
> > > > >
> > > > > The flavor of a particular program is strongly inflected by its key
> > > > > poet(s). It'll be interesting, to take one obvious example, to
> see how
> > > > > writing emerging from Buffalo change over to the coming years,
> between
> > > > > Charles Bernsein's and Steve McCaffery's authored climates of
> research
> > > > > and umbrellas of enthusiasm. Another example is the shift from Burt
> > > > > Kimmelman and Sylvester Pollet to Ben Friedlander and Steve Evans at
> > > > > Orono (even though Burt and Sylvester remain, Ben and Steve are
> > > > > bringing other energies and enthusiasms into play). It isn't exactly
> > > > > big thinking to point this out I realise that. One might take the
> > > > > current clutch of young poets active around Birkbeck as another
> > example
> > > > > over here or the past decade of fierce enquiry at Dartington. I do
> > > > > think this is going on in the UK as much as in the US now. The scale
> > > > > and intensity differ for sure but with Dartington, Exeter, Edge Hill,
> > > > > Warwick, Bangor, Southampton, Roehampton, Royal Holloway, UEA,
> > > > > Manchester Metropolitan, Salford . . .  and many others the
> burgeoning
> > > > > US model of the Writer's House is likely to follow on.
> > > > >
> > > > > Staying in education, living off small research studentships and
> so on
> > > > > has (perhaps perhaps) supplanted the dole as one way to develop a
> > > > > writing practice in the largely commercially non-viable worlds of
> > > > > contemporary poetry (given rare exceptions). There are real problems
> > > > > too. One is that writing can become too pedagogically inclined,
> > writing
> > > > > what students might usefully study as example. Another is that of
> > > > > getting sucked into teaching without ever having much experience of
> > > > > outside, in other words skipping that vital phase of resistance and
> > > > > struggle, developing a practice outside the institutions. I've
> > > > > certainly witnessed examples like that in the US in recent months and
> > > > > maybe that produces the efficient and yet smug poetry that you might
> > be
> > > > > trying to get at?
> > > > >
> > > > > love and love
> > > > > cris
> > >
> > >