True we may not be able to defend a site against a planning appeal on
troll grounds alone but I certainly see a point in recording such
information if only in the free text fields. What if some one proves
that stones can retain and reply electromagnetic images, and we have not
at least made a note of the ghost?
Surely Stonehenge is considered as more interesting (if not more
important) than Avebury became of the Druids etc.
Thank You
David Evans
Historic Environment Record Officer
01454 863649
>>> [log in to unmask] 15/04/2004 17:42:26 >>>
In Iceland they will not build in certain areas because trolls live
there!
However, much as though I like the idea I think I can see a flaw for an
SMR
that is relied upon to provide data for planning purposes! Opposing
something like a new housing estate on the basis of a known
archaeological
site whose significance is defined in part by ghost sightings will not
stand
up at a public enquiry I'm afraid. Still, it is good to hear that some
heritage bodies continue to record folklore to the same level of detail
that
the rest of us record facts and figures.
regards
Quinton Carroll
Cambs SMR
-----Original Message-----
From: Siddall, Jason [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 15 April 2004 17:11
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Building Records in SMRs
hehe
hi peter hope your well and life is being kind ??
indeed there are rules and there is qualification on these
they are attached to a monument or historic property record
i do understand and take the point of the idea that sometimes sites
can
be promoted!! as such
but we record where the suggestion came from ... the evidence for it
and
the story or legend associated
i.e the ghosts of the roman legionnaires in the treasurer's house in
York
to be honest we are very keen on such aspects .. as a conservation
organisation ... that sort of data is as important to us as the fact
it
is a castle (I guess that's what you could call the hard scientific
archaeological evidence - but even that is all interpretation there
are
no hard facts in archaeology).
we record
the date the occurrence..
description
when association was recorded
who recorded it.
they are presented as a story and associations with dates against them
for us such legends ... or associations are very important it effects
the way we manage ... but also how we interpret our properties and
monuments.
i.e.
is it a pagan site if so we need to be careful of how we effect the
setting ... i.e. do not remove candles
is it a fairy site if so do not destroy the flowers and toadstools
is it a ghost site
I know it sounds not scientifically sound but really that's irrelevant
it is based around the principles of the significance of our
properties
and monuments .. and there can be many reasons why a monument or
property is significant the fact it is a suggested pagan site or a
ghost
legend or a myth is there then fair enough it must be recorded. The
point is such things may not be "scientifically sound in the
archaeology" but that is to be honest not important .. they are
presented as legends, myths and stories not as fact that are
associated.
In terms of our land we have a responsibility to record the
associations
historical or legendary or assumed...
you then have the ability to tell the story ... i.e.
this monument/building started out as:
the first building to have electric lighting (noted as fact)
the homes of sir Francis drake (noted as fact)
Having a resident ghost (legend, myth and story)
I would be happy to show this working when we develop the new smr ..
which should be available end of 2005.
cheers
Jason
-----Original Message-----
From: Iles, Peter [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2004 4:31 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Building Records in SMRs
Jason,
On the assumption that these legends, myths and associations are
historical,
do you have rules about what are valid legends, myths and
associations?
And
what do you do about people making things up now or in the very recent
past?
We have a site that was 'promoted' in the 1990's as 'the most haunted
site
in Britain', which is arguable even if you believe in ghosts. Many of
the
other things they said about the same site were rubbish - softwood
roof
timbers 'came from Viking long ships' as a variation on the 'timbers
from
the Spanish Armada' theme for instance.
I have generally discounted these kinds of stories and left it to
folklore
specialists to collect them but can see their value in some cases,
particularly to add a 'social flavour' to the records.
Peter D Iles
Specialist Advisor (Archaeology)
Environment Directorate
Lancashire County Council
Tel: 01772 5-31550
Fax: 01772 5-33423
Email: [log in to unmask]
-----Original Message-----
From: Siddall, Jason [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 15 April 2004 16:10
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Building Records in SMRs
it is possible to (which is what we do in the National Trust)
say
as site types as usage
motte and bailey destroyed to 1199
castle built from 1299
Hall altered from 1400
manor hall built from 1750 to modern day
so this would be the history of a Monument its different
purposes/usage
over time and indeed it is held as many site types against the
monument
record. So it is certainly acceptable to be able to do such things and
the one of the strengths of the Exegesis SMR is that it can do such
things fairly well.
as a related note
in our new smr we have an element that allows us to record major
events
in a property or monument which you can date
these are under certain groupings such as:
Group 1 historical events
built
burned
destroyed
siege
Group 2 legends, myths and associations
ghost
fairy site
pagan site
site of someone being associated i.e. the giant's causeway being
associated with a giant or site is associated with king Arthur
visit by an important person
association of an important person - i.e. sir Francis drake lived here
there is a whole host of other groups and historical, legendary that
we
presently include and will strengthen in the next version of the
NTSMR.
hope that helps
Cheers
Jason
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Bennet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2004 3:27 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Building Records in SMRs
Nick
We in Lincolnshire also use HBSMR and have thought about the recording
of different building usages. We do tend to create different monument
types for different uses of a building as well as for major rebuilding
work on a building, although on the whole these would be recorded
within
a single record.
For what it is worth I have extracted the relevant section from our
guidance notes for staff on SMR record creation. This is general
guidance only and there are particular buildings where a different
data
structure would certainly be better. Anyway I hope it is a help.
Standing Buildings and Structures
New buildings' records require the Record Type Building. Buildings
or structures sometimes have more complex histories of use and
alteration, which should be represented in a different way to other
Sites and Monuments.
Rebuilding or major alterations of a Building or Structure.
Sometimes a structure is rebuilt and used for the same purpose as the
original. Examples of this may be bridges and churches. You may
have,
for example, a Norman church which was demolished and rebuilt in the
1870s. This should be represented as follows:
Monument Type: Church. Evidence: Demolished Building. Period:
Medieval-Post Medieval, 1066-1871,
Display Date: Demolished 1871
Monument Type: Church. Evidence: Extant Building. Period: Post
Medieval-Modern, 1871-2050
Sometimes a building or structure may have components which relate
specifically to a particular phase of use. This can also be
represented
in the same way. A bridge was constructed in the nineteenth century
and
has twice been rebuilt on the same site using the same foundations.
This should be represented thus:
Monument Type: Bridge. Evidence: Structure. Period: Post Medieval
1830-1850
Display Date: Altered 1850
Monument Type: Bridge. Evidence: Structure. Period: Post Medieval
1850-1889
Display Date: Altered 1889
Monument Type: Bridge. Evidence: Structure. Period: Post
Medieval-Modern 1889-2050
A building or structure that retains its basic character, but has
slight fabric alterations and/or changes of use, can be represented in
the same Building/Monument record. For example, you may have a church
that was later converted into a house.
Monument Type: Church. Evidence: Extant Building. Period:
Medieval-Modern 1066-1976
Display Date: Altered 1976
Monument Type: House. Evidence: Extant Building. Period: Modern
1976-2050
Another example might be a building that was built as a textile mill,
was later converted and used as a warehouse and is now an art gallery.
This should be represented as follows:
Monument Type: Industrial Building. Evidence: Extant Building. Period:
Post Medieval-Modern 1794-2050
Monument Type: Textile Mill. Evidence: Extant Building. Period: Post
Medieval 1794-1825
Display Date: Altered 1825
Monument Type: Warehouse. Evidence: Extant Building. Period: Post
Medieval-Modern 1826-1976
Display Date: Altered 1976
Monument Type: Art Gallery. Evidence: Extant Building. Period: Post
Medieval-Modern 1976-2050
Note that Industrial Building has been used as a top level term.
Mark Bennet
Mark Bennet
Senior Environmental Records Officer
01522 553073
[log in to unmask]
>>> [log in to unmask] 15/04/2004 09:35:18 >>>
Hello Folks
I have recently imported a load of Mill data into our (HB)SMR. As part
of the post import clean up I got to thinking (always dangerous...,
I'll
learn to stop doing it one day). What I imported was Windmill and
Watermill data.
For many of these we have a variety of dates - built date, date
stopped
milling, date demolished etc. Some of these monuments are still extant
buildings and some of the dates refer to the building as a structure
whilst other dates relate to its use as a mill.
Is there any view on how these differences should be recorded? For
example the end date of the milling is about use, but for the extant
examples there is as yet no end date really as the building still
exists. Should two Monument types be created to record details of the
use as opposed to the structure (IE one as building with start and end
dates as appropriate, and one as watermill with start and end dates of
it being a mill) but even then this might be the start and end date of
cereal milling, and the extant structure is still a water mill.
Obviously this has implications for how we record buildings, and can
think of my own ideas, just wanted to see if anyone else has thought
about this or are you all too busy with other things?
thanks
best wishes
Nick Boldrini
SMR Computing Officer
Heritage Unit
North Yorkshire County Council
Direct Dial (01609) 532331
http://www.northyorks.gov.uk/environment/heritage.shtm#Archaeology
North Yorkshire County Council has the right
and does inspect E-Government mails sent
from and to its computer system.
************************************************************************
********
Note: We are a Microsoft Office site. Our base version is 4.3.
Please
make sure
that files you send can be read in this format.
Any form of reproduction, dissemination, copying, disclosure,
modification, distribution and/or publication of this e-mail is
strictly
prohibited save unless expressly authorised by the sender.
The information contained in this message is intended for the named
recipients only. It may contain privileged and confidential
information
and if you
are not the addressee or the person responsible for delivering this to
the addressee,
you may not copy, distribute or take action in reliance on it.
If you have received this message in error, please notify the
sender(s)
immediately by telephone. Please also destroy and delete as soon as
possible
the message from your computer.
************************************************************************
*********
______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
______________________________________________________________________
********************************************************
One tonne of recycled paper (= 100 bin bags) saves 17 trees, 17000
gallons of water and enough energy to heat the average home for 6
months
- RECYCLE MORE -
**********************************************************
confidentiality :-
The National Trust believes in treating information with
care. Because this message and any attachments may
contain information which is confidential, if you have
received it in error please contact us immediately and
do not disclose, copy, use or store it in any way.
viruses :-
It is our policy to check emails for viruses before
sending, but we recommend that you also check the
message and any attachments, as either could contain
viruses which could damage your systems.
charity details :-
The National Trust for Places of Historic Interest or
Natural Beauty. 36 Queen Anne's Gate London SWIH 9AS
Registered Charity Number 205846
Tel: +44 (0)20 7222 9251
Fax: +44 (0)20 7222 5097
www.nationaltrust.org.uk
********************************************************
______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
______________________________________________________________________
********************
This e-mail contains information intended for the addressee only.
It may be confidential and may be the subject of legal and/or
professional privilege.
If you are not the addressee you are not authorised to disseminate,
distribute, copy or use this e-mail or any attachment to it
The content may be personal or contain personal opinions and unless
specifically stated or followed up in writing, the content cannot be
taken to form a contract or to be an expression of the County
Council's
position.
LCC reserves the right to monitor all incoming and outgoing email
LCC has taken reasonable steps to ensure that outgoing communications
do
not contain malicious software and it is your responsibility to carry
out any checks on this email before accepting the email and opening
attachments.
********************
______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
______________________________________________________________________
********************************************************
One tonne of recycled paper (= 100 bin bags) saves 17 trees, 17000
gallons of water and enough energy to heat the average home for 6
months
- RECYCLE MORE -
**********************************************************
confidentiality :-
The National Trust believes in treating information with
care. Because this message and any attachments may
contain information which is confidential, if you have
received it in error please contact us immediately and
do not disclose, copy, use or store it in any way.
viruses :-
It is our policy to check emails for viruses before
sending, but we recommend that you also check the
message and any attachments, as either could contain
viruses which could damage your systems.
charity details :-
The National Trust for Places of Historic Interest or
Natural Beauty. 36 Queen Anne's Gate London SWIH 9AS
Registered Charity Number 205846
Tel: +44 (0)20 7222 9251
Fax: +44 (0)20 7222 5097
www.nationaltrust.org.uk
********************************************************
______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
______________________________________________________________________
***************************************************************************
The information in this email is confidential and may be legally
privileged.
It is intended solely for the addressee. If you receive this email by
mistake please notify the sender and delete it immediately. Opinions
expressed are those of the individual and do not necessarily represent
the
opinion of Cambridgeshire County Council. All sent and received email
from
Cambridgeshire County Council is automatically scanned for the presence
of
computer viruses and security issues.
***************************************************************************
**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it from South
Gloucestershire Council are confidential and intended
solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error
please notify the South Gloucestershire Council
Postmaster at the address below.
This footnote also confirms that this email message has
been swept for the presence of computer viruses.
[log in to unmask]
**********************************************************************
|
