JiscMail Logo
Email discussion lists for the UK Education and Research communities

Help for MCG Archives


MCG Archives

MCG Archives


MCG@JISCMAIL.AC.UK


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

MCG Home

MCG Home

MCG  2004

MCG 2004

Options

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password

Subject:

Re: Browsers

From:

"Gray, Peter" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Museums Computer Group <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 16 Jun 2004 17:39:03 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (79 lines)

> 1. How does IE identify itself? Is it information that the browser
> itself passes on, or do the stats/log files make an intelligent guess
> based on what kind of software it is? If the latter, is there 
> not scope
> for different browsers sharing a common engine/origin to be identified
> as each other? I recall using a 'who am I' script which Identified my
> browser as Mozilla instead of IE5. How accurate is browser
> identification anyway?

Browsers may identify themselves to the server they are requesting a file from in the HTTP headers (but ISTR that it's not mandatory). IE sends stuff like this (it varies for different flavours of IE/OS, so this is just an example): 

Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows NT 5.1)

Browsers can be configured to lie, but most aren't. This is in fact why IE identifies itself first as Mozilla, since some older sites used to lock IE out because it wasn't Netscape! But the whole issue is clouded by the various caches that may intervene between the requesting browser and your server.

> 
> 2. What are the access issues surrounding 'browser sniffing'? 
> Aside from
> the fact that it seems to be predominantly Javascript-based, are there
> issues arising from identifying the browser and serving up the
> content/style accordingly? And to what extent can a 
> combination of XHTML
> and CSS overcome different browser requirements?

Browser sniffing is IMO pointless and unreliable. It seems to stem from an obsession with trying to achieve the pixel-perfection of colour and layout you can achieve in print publishing in the very different environment of the web. It only works if javascript is enabled; you have to keep updating it as new browsers are developed; and there are hundreds (or more) of browsers out there, so who wants to write sniffer scripts for those? 

You can easily exclude older browsers from more recent CSS without resorting to it, and if it's a javascript problem you should use object detection rather than browser sniffing, since that method is reliable. 
> 
> 3. What is it that leads to these browser quirks? I have seen
> information relating to the Document Object Model and how it 
> is handled,

I think in IE it's mostly a legacy problem of getting some things wrong earlier. Most of the old bugs seem to be fixed in IE6 standards mode. But for real ability to get CSS completely wrong, there's nothing to beat NN4.

> but I am not totally sure that I understand how these make one browser
> any better or worse, particularly in terms of accessibility. Is it
> possible to design in such a way that the presentation is 
> independent of
> these quirks?
> 

It depends what you mean by 'presentation'. It is impossible to get a web site looking exactly the same in different browsers on the same machine (hard enough in the same browser on different machines running the same OS). What does 'the same' mean in the context of different screen sizes, resolutions, window sizes/aspect ratios, colour depths, to say nothing of browsers and operating systems? But substantially the same in modern browsers can be achieved. IMO you just have to accept that older browsers (I'm talking IE4, NN4 or earlier) will get a basic presentation, without much (or all) of the eye candy - but they will get the content.

Regarding quirks, IE's most well-known are the fixed-size fonts bug (if font sizes are defined in pixels, users can't re-size the text); and IE5 and earlier (but not IE5.5 and IE6) getting the box model completely wrong. There's not a lot you can do about that. other than accept your pages will look slightly different in IE5 to the way the look in IE6. But IE6 reverts to 'old IE' mode unless you force it into standards mode with a full doctype (eg <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">). 

So, no I don't think it's possible (or economically advisable to try) to get the presentation the same regardless of browser quirks. But you can design so that your site will be substantially the same across a range of modern browsers (which probably does approach 98% of graphical browsers), while not locking others out of your content. I do think it's possible to design to standards in such a way that you can enable access without losing the benefits of graphical design.

<disclaimer>
I am not a graphic designer, nor a professional web designer, but I suppose I should point at something I've done to show what I mean. This site was put together last Friday afternoon: <http://tour.prestongrange.org/>. I'm sure there are things that could be improved, but AFAICT it works for everyone.
</disclaimer>

Best wishes

Pete
-- 
Peter M Gray
Museums Officer


**********************************************************************
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the sender and ensure it is deleted and not read copied or disclosed
to anyone else. It is your responsibility to scan this email and any
attachments for computer viruses or other defects. East Lothian
Council do not accept liability for any loss or damage which may
result from this email or any files attached. Email is not secure and
can be intercepted, corrupted or amended without the knowledge of the
sender. East Lothian Council do not accept liability for errors or
omissions arising as a result of interrupted or defective transmission.
**********************************************************************


______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
______________________________________________________________________

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

JiscMail Tools


RSS Feeds and Sharing


Advanced Options


Archives

April 2024
March 2024
February 2024
January 2024
December 2023
November 2023
October 2023
September 2023
August 2023
July 2023
June 2023
May 2023
April 2023
March 2023
February 2023
January 2023
December 2022
November 2022
October 2022
September 2022
August 2022
July 2022
June 2022
May 2022
April 2022
March 2022
February 2022
January 2022
December 2021
November 2021
October 2021
September 2021
August 2021
July 2021
June 2021
May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
February 2021
January 2021
December 2020
November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
2006
2005
2004
2003
2002
2001
2000
1999
1998


JiscMail is a Jisc service.

View our service policies at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ and Jisc's privacy policy at https://www.jisc.ac.uk/website/privacy-notice

For help and support help@jisc.ac.uk

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager