JiscMail Logo
Email discussion lists for the UK Education and Research communities

Help for PHYSIO Archives


PHYSIO Archives

PHYSIO Archives


PHYSIO@JISCMAIL.AC.UK


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

PHYSIO Home

PHYSIO Home

PHYSIO  February 2003

PHYSIO February 2003

Options

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password

Subject:

Re: LBP & neuro signs dilemma [Henry]

From:

Frank Conijn <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

- for physiotherapists in education and practice <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Sat, 1 Feb 2003 03:46:23 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (168 lines)

Henry,

You: "[W]e haven't even got into the theory of the McKenzie model"
Me: The McKenzie model consists of the disc derangement submodel, the
"dysfunction" submodel (the [awkward] McKenzie term for a shortening or
tightening or being immobile of tissues or structures), the SIJ submodel
(diagnosed -- after the regular assessment procedure has not centralized or
peripheralized the pain -- through provocation tests, not palpatory position
or palpatory mobility tests), and a number of other submodels. It is
therefore extremely tricky to speak of "the McKenzie model", and it is plain
wrong to think that the McKenzie model equals the disc derangement model.

You: "I better get Donelson's article out again and have a good read.
But from memory, they compared it to
discograms and there is questions surrounding the
reliability of discography in diagnosing symptomatic discs."
Me: Discography is (indeed) not without doubt when it comes to validity (I
haven't read anything about it not being reproducible enough, though). There
indeed seems to be conflicting evidence. However, Donelson et al used the
exact same gold standard for both the McKenzie assessment <and> MRI. In
other words: the validity of (part of) the assessment versus that of MRI was
judged with the exact same criteria.

You: "Based on what I have read so far, nothing has been shown to be more
effective in terms of managing back pain with or without radicular signs."
Me: "Nothing" is not true. Without having the time to do a more thorough
search, what was found in a (very) recent systematic literature review is
that the efficacy of spinal manipulative therapy alone, when applied to
chronic LBP patients without prior McKenzie assessment is at least
doubtful, if not ineffective (1).


You: "[A] meta-analysis of clinical trials on the efficacy of the McKenzie
Physiotherapy regime presented at the MPAA conference in 1997
has not shown it to be a superior treatment compared to other
therapies."
Me: As you yourself stated: "[A]n absence of evidence does not equal
evidence of absence." And that's especially correct when it
comes to the McKenzie method:
it's hard for an algorithmical method consisting of a dozen or so submethods
to be proven superior if hardly any studies are done that studied the method
as a whole. Up to 1996 (reviews usually take a number of
months to be completed) hardly any studies were done at all, and if there
were, they were not of sufficiently high quality to meet the demands of
systematic literature reviewers. Also, many researchers make the mistake of
thinking McKenzie-method therapy equals passive-extension exercises, as John
(Dufton) again demonstrated. I'll explain it once more, since you (too)
seemingly haven't understood the essence of the method yet: the McKenzie
method consists of specific exercises (<not!> limited to extension),
postural education & aids, mobilization (also of neural tissues),
manipulation, traction in select cases, and in other select cases medication
(the assessment can also come to the conclusion that the pain is primarily
chemically induced in stead of primarily mechanically) and referral for
surgical consultation. The assessment outcome shows What To Do When (and as
is already common practice among experienced McKenzie clinicians, if one is
not sure, one goes with the most probable, and sees what that does over a
three or so days).

You: "I am sure we all have come across studies by Cherkin et al (1998) that
showed no difference between Mckenzie Physiotherapy, chiropractice
manipulations and educational booklet."
Me: Cherkin et al used patients with rather light and primarily (sub-)acute,
non-radiating back, complaints. I doubt that that is a very good group to do
research with, since those patients often heal within a matter of weeks. The
McKenzie method usually appeals to a great deal of self activity by the
patient. Also, they divided them into 3 treatment groups: chiropractic, and
educational booklet and McKenzie-method PT. All three methods (I assume that
they did not use the few remaining chiropractors who think that with <just>
a few simple corrections of a "subluxation" things are solved) contain
advice on posture, in which the lumbar support plays an important role.
Whether the lumbar support was invented by McKenzie I'm not sure of, but it
is surely popular now (look at the design of the seats of modern cars versus
that of old cars, and the design of modern office seats verus old).
Furthermore, significantly more patients from the non-McKenzie group
consumed additional health care than the McKenzie group did, in Cherkin et
al's study, which was not corrected for in the (intention-to-treat)
analysis. All in all, I'm not at all sure that McKenzie-method PT will
do a much better job than chiropractic or an educational booklet, when it
comes to cost-efficacy in simple, (sub-)acute LBP, but I <am> sure that one
should not regard Cherkin's study as <the> study that shows the (relative)
efficacy of McKenzie-method PT, when it comes to LBP in general (acute,
subacute and chronic).

You: "Hsieh et al (Spine, 11 p 1142, 2002) did a study looking at the
effectiveness of four conservative treatments (back school, joint
manipulation, myofascial therapy and combined joint manip/myofascial
therapy) in subacute low back pain. All four treatments were as effective."
Me: Like I said, I'm not sure about the McKenzie method in simple,
(sub)acute LBP, but Stankovic & Johnell, measuring up to 12 months, still
found McKenzie-method PT superior in five out of seven main variables to
"mini back school" (2), even though at five years the differences had become
much smaller.


You (Jull & Moore): "the clinical challenge is to have expertise in a
variety of approaches and to be able to select which patient is responsive
to which approaches for most expedient and effective treatment".
Me: Exactly!! That's why -- as a biomedical approach, although it could even
turn out to already cater for important aspects of the behavioural variables
as well -- I favour the McKenzie (algorithmical) method over methods that
are limited to neural mobilization or manual mobilization/manipulation, and
over methods that give the patient a dozen exercises in the hope that the
really effective one(s) will be among them, as is practice in quite a lot of
back-rehabilitation/fitness centres. (See also my reply to Sam's message
when it comes to behavioural methods.)



References:
1. Ferreira M et al, Does spinal manipulative therapy help people with
chronic low back pain? Aust J Physiother 2002;48(4):277-84.
2. Stankovic R, Johnell O, Conservative treatment of acute low-back pain. A
prospective randomized trial: McKenzie method of treatment versus patient
education in "mini back school". Spine 1990 Feb;15(2):120-3.


R.,
Frank



----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
Van: Henry Tsao
Aan: [log in to unmask]
Verzonden: zondag 26 januari 2003 4:14
Onderwerp: Re: LBP & neuro signs dilemma


Ben,

Please let us know what you did with the patient and his progress.

Frank and Sam,

Very interesting debate about McKenzie Physiotherapy and diagnosis... and
we haven't even got into the theory of the McKenzie model. I better get
Donelson's article out again and have a good read. But from memory, they
compared it to discograms and there is questions surrounding the
reliability of discography in diagnosing symptomatic discs.

Based on what I have read so far, nothing has been shown to be more
effective in terms of managing back pain with or without radicular signs.
I am sure we all have come across studies by Cherkin et al (1998) that
showed no difference between Mckenzie Physiotherapy, chiropractice
manipulations and educational booklet. As well, a meta-analysis of
clinical trials on the efficacy of the McKenzie Physiotherapy regime
presented at the MPAA conference in 1997 has not shown it to be a superior
treatment compared to other therapies. Acknowledging the limitions and
restrictions on these and other studies, it does point towards the
question: are manipulative therapy approaches the same? What is the common
denominator.

Hsieh et al (Spine, 11 p 1142, 2002) did a study looking at the
effectiveness of four conservative treatments (back school, joint
manipulation, myofascial therapy and combined joint manip/myofascial
therapy) in subacute low back pain. All four treatments were as effective.

To quote Jull and Moore (Manual Therapy 7(2) p63, 2002):

"The arguments of the superiority of one approach or another seem
redundant. The question we should be asking clinically and in research is
how one technique might stiumulate the central nervous system differently
to another.... the clinical challenge is to have expertise in a variety of
approaches and to be able to select which patient is responsive to which
approaches for most expedient and effective treatment."

Henry***

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

JiscMail Tools


RSS Feeds and Sharing


Advanced Options


Archives

March 2024
February 2024
December 2023
October 2023
August 2023
July 2023
June 2023
May 2023
April 2023
December 2022
October 2022
September 2022
May 2022
December 2021
November 2021
August 2021
June 2021
May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
February 2021
September 2020
July 2020
April 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
July 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
December 2000
November 2000
October 2000
September 2000
August 2000
July 2000
June 2000
May 2000
April 2000
March 2000
February 2000
January 2000
December 1999
November 1999
October 1999
September 1999
August 1999
July 1999
June 1999
May 1999
April 1999
March 1999
February 1999
January 1999
December 1998
November 1998
October 1998
September 1998
August 1998
July 1998
June 1998
May 1998
April 1998
March 1998


JiscMail is a Jisc service.

View our service policies at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ and Jisc's privacy policy at https://www.jisc.ac.uk/website/privacy-notice

For help and support help@jisc.ac.uk

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager