Neil, THAT is just the point I was trying to tease out of the debate. We
are in a position where nurses of my 'vintage' see this procedure as a
normal and basic nursing skill, that although taught many years ago, gives
much better evidence based knowledge when I/you/we need to update to use it
in present practice, Other of our colleagues are throwing their hands up in
horror at the thought of giving such an injection because it is not a skill
they have been taught, and they perceive it to be an 'extension' of their
basic skill base. Does not this whole scenario cast serious doubts on the
validity of modern nurse training, whereby the profession is gradually being
deskilled and losing basic nursing knowledge at the expense of a more
esoteric, managerial, administrative and academic approach. If I was ill
and in hospital I would wish the nurse to have the skills to make me feel
comfortable and cared for. I wouldn't give two hoots if they could write a
dissertation. Nursing is about aquiring the practical skills necessary to
care for people....we must never lose sight of that, because if we do we
cease to be nurses !!
Regards, Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neil & Paul" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?
> Robert,
> The argument is that intradermals are not taught on the basic syllabus at
> many of the universities I know. That's the issue. It is an extended role
> for want of a better phrase. It is something that many nurses have had NO
> training or competency in.
>
> Neil
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Robert Dunn"
> <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 8:46 AM
> Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?
>
>
> > Neil, thank you for not volunteering!, and thank you to everyone else
> that
> > took the bait of 'proper'. For your info I am fully upto date and give
> > BCG's regularly, as do ALL my nursing staff. I do wholeheartedly agree
> with
> > Greta in as much that I would not employ an nurse that would refuse to
> give
> > vaccinations, and BCG's in particular. It would make the administration
> of
> > the the OH service very difficult, if not impossible, if we had to
> organise
> > clinics around individual nurse likes and dislikes, especially with a
> small
> > team. The point I was trying to make is that intradermal injections
> > essentially are a basic nursing skill which should not require
discussion.
> > Sadly, along with many nursing skills that made the nurse a unique
> > professional, they have been eroded to the detriment of modern nursing,
(
> > incidentally, this same portfolio of basic skills is now carried out now
> by
> > non-professionally accountable HCA's). Modern nurse training tends to
> > focus on psuedo-medical, technical, administrative, academic and social
> > issues, and no longer deems it necessary that registered nurses need to
be
> > equiped with what were a few years ago accepted to be the basic
practical
> > skills of nursing. The administration of Intradermal injections are
not
> > some non-existant, outmoded 'extension of role', so where is the
argument?
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Neil & Paul" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 6:37 PM
> > Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?
> >
> >
> > > If you haven't given an intradermal for 30 years Robert I will not let
> you
> > > practice on me - sorry
> > >
> > > Neil
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Anne Beckerton" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 2:23 PM
> > > Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?
> > >
> > >
> > > > Well said Robert!
> > > > Anne
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Robert Dunn"
> > > > <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 2:18 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Dear All
> > > > >
> > > > > To add fuel to this particular fire, I cannot see for the life of
me
> > why
> > > > any
> > > > > nurse should refuse to give an intradermal injection provided they
> > have
> > > > been
> > > > > given appropriate training and have been deemed competent in the
> > > > technique.
> > > > > When I trained as a 'proper' nurse (State Registered Nurse) 30
years
> > > ago,
> > > > > Intradermal, Subcuaneous and Intramuscular injection technique was
> not
> > > > > optional, it was a requirement of completion of the training, and
> was
> > in
> > > > > fact taught within the first 6 weeks of our nursing career in
> > > preliminary
> > > > > training school. Refusal to carry out any of them would have led
to
> > > > > incomplete competancy and failure of the course. Has modern nurse
> > > > training
> > > > > gone so far into the realms of social sciences and academia that a
> > basic
> > > > > skill such as intradermal injection technique is no longer
required?
> > > Any
> > > > > person (not just a nurse or physician) is able legally to give any
> > > > > injection, provided the person receiving it is aware of the status
> of
> > > that
> > > > > individual, and that the individual has received appropriate
> > > training.....
> > > > > it is not rocket science afterall..!!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Fields Shirley" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 3:05 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I certainly wouldn't mind if any of the nurses declined to give,
> > > > personally
> > > > > I don't like intra dermal injections and have therefore always
> > refused.
> > > > >
> > > > > Shirley Fields
> > > > > OH Manager Burton NHS
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: diane romano woodward [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > > > > Sent: 02 December 2003 15:02
> > > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > > Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > All seem to be very positive about nurses doing this.
> > > > > Is this considered to be an extended role that one can chose not
to
> > do?
> > > I
> > > > > remember opting out when working in the NHS some years ago as (I
> > think)
> > > it
> > > > > is possible to cause some disruption to the arm if they are
actually
> > > > immune.
> > > > > On that basis I felt it was better to let OHP take responsibility,
> > (they
> > > > get
> > > > > paid more..)
> > > > >
> > > > > For those of you in the NHS would you frown upon employing a nurse
> who
> > > > > declined to do them, as long as they could do heaf tests, Hep Bs
> etc?
> > > > >
> > > > > Best wishes,
> > > > > Diane
> > > > > (independent practitioner)
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Fields Shirley" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 10:49 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Chris (remember me)
> > > > >
> > > > > At Burton one of our nurses is currently undergoing training from
> the
> > > > chest
> > > > > clinic nurse to do BCG's. There is no reason why nurses cannot do
> this
> > > > > procedure with adequate training.
> > > > >
> > > > > Say hi to Sally
> > > > >
> > > > > Shirley Fields
> > > > > OH Manager
> > > > > Burton NHS Trust
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Baldwin Chris (RFF) Occupational Health Nurse Advisor
> > > > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > > > > Sent: 02 December 2003 10:01
> > > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > > Subject: BCG Vaccinations
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Good morning everyone,
> > > > > a question particularly for NHS colleagues. Do NHS Occupational
> Health
> > > > > colleagues allow the vaccination to be nurse or doctor
administered?
> > > your
> > > > > comments and thoughts on this are appreciated.
> > > > >
> > > > > chris Baldwin
> > > > >
> > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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