Robert,
The argument is that intradermals are not taught on the basic syllabus at
many of the universities I know. That's the issue. It is an extended role
for want of a better phrase. It is something that many nurses have had NO
training or competency in.

Neil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Dunn"
<[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 8:46 AM
Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?


> Neil, thank you for not volunteering!,  and thank you to everyone else
that
> took the bait of 'proper'.  For your info I am fully upto date and give
> BCG's regularly, as do ALL my nursing staff.  I do wholeheartedly agree
with
> Greta in as much that I would not employ an nurse that would refuse to
give
> vaccinations, and BCG's in particular.  It would make the administration
of
> the the OH service very difficult, if not impossible, if we had to
organise
> clinics around individual nurse likes and dislikes, especially with a
small
> team.  The point I was trying to make is that intradermal injections
> essentially are a basic nursing skill which should not require discussion.
> Sadly, along with many nursing skills that made the nurse a unique
> professional, they have been eroded to the detriment of modern nursing, (
> incidentally, this same portfolio of basic skills is now carried out now
by
> non-professionally accountable HCA's).   Modern nurse training tends to
> focus on psuedo-medical, technical, administrative, academic and social
> issues, and no longer deems it necessary that registered nurses need to be
> equiped with what were a few years ago accepted to be the basic practical
> skills of nursing.   The administration of Intradermal injections are not
> some non-existant, outmoded 'extension of role', so where is the argument?
>
> Bob
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Neil & Paul" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 6:37 PM
> Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?
>
>
> > If you haven't given an intradermal for 30 years Robert I will not let
you
> > practice on me - sorry
> >
> > Neil
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Anne Beckerton" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 2:23 PM
> > Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?
> >
> >
> > > Well said Robert!
> > > Anne
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Robert Dunn"
> > > <[log in to unmask]>
> > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 2:18 PM
> > > Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?
> > >
> > >
> > > > Dear All
> > > >
> > > > To add fuel to this particular fire, I cannot see for the life of me
> why
> > > any
> > > > nurse should refuse to give an intradermal injection provided they
> have
> > > been
> > > > given appropriate training and have been deemed competent in the
> > > technique.
> > > > When I trained as a 'proper' nurse (State Registered Nurse) 30 years
> > ago,
> > > > Intradermal, Subcuaneous and Intramuscular injection technique was
not
> > > > optional, it was a requirement of completion of the training, and
was
> in
> > > > fact taught within the first 6 weeks of our nursing career in
> > preliminary
> > > > training school.  Refusal to carry out any of them would have led to
> > > > incomplete competancy and failure of the course.  Has modern nurse
> > > training
> > > > gone so far into the realms of social sciences and academia that a
> basic
> > > > skill such as intradermal injection technique is no longer required?
> > Any
> > > > person (not just a nurse or physician) is able legally to give any
> > > > injection, provided the person receiving it is aware of the status
of
> > that
> > > > individual, and that the individual has received appropriate
> > training.....
> > > > it is not rocket science afterall..!!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Fields Shirley" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 3:05 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I certainly wouldn't mind if any of the nurses declined to give,
> > > personally
> > > > I don't like intra dermal injections and have therefore always
> refused.
> > > >
> > > > Shirley Fields
> > > > OH Manager Burton NHS
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: diane romano woodward [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > > > Sent: 02 December 2003 15:02
> > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations: dissent?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > All seem to be very positive about nurses doing this.
> > > > Is this considered to be an extended role that one can chose not to
> do?
> > I
> > > > remember opting out when working in the NHS some years ago as (I
> think)
> > it
> > > > is possible to cause some disruption to the arm if they are actually
> > > immune.
> > > > On that basis I felt it was better to let OHP take responsibility,
> (they
> > > get
> > > > paid more..)
> > > >
> > > > For those of you in the NHS would you frown upon employing a nurse
who
> > > > declined to do them, as long as they could do heaf tests, Hep Bs
etc?
> > > >
> > > > Best wishes,
> > > > Diane
> > > > (independent practitioner)
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Fields Shirley" <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2003 10:49 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: BCG Vaccinations
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi Chris (remember me)
> > > >
> > > > At Burton one of our nurses is currently undergoing training from
the
> > > chest
> > > > clinic nurse to do BCG's. There is no reason why nurses cannot do
this
> > > > procedure with adequate training.
> > > >
> > > > Say hi to Sally
> > > >
> > > > Shirley Fields
> > > > OH Manager
> > > > Burton NHS Trust
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Baldwin Chris (RFF) Occupational Health Nurse Advisor
> > > > [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > > > Sent: 02 December 2003 10:01
> > > > To: [log in to unmask]
> > > > Subject: BCG Vaccinations
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Good morning everyone,
> > > > a question particularly for NHS colleagues. Do NHS Occupational
Health
> > > > colleagues allow the vaccination to be nurse or doctor administered?
> > your
> > > > comments and thoughts on this are appreciated.
> > > >
> > > > chris Baldwin
> > > >
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