Nicely put; thank you.
Timothy Lillie, PhD
Dept. of Curricular & Instructional Studies
The University of Akron
Akron OH 44325-4205
330-972-6746 (Voice)
330-972-5209 (Fax)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Larry Arnold [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 7:00 AM
> To: Lillie,Timothy H; [log in to unmask]
> Subject: RE: Blair and Bush call themselves christians
>
>
> In essence if one allows of free will, one is free to chose
> whether to be
> oppressed or not, to be a slave or a free person, to self
> harm or not to
> self harm.
>
> The principle is the old one of John Stuart Mill, at what
> point does ones
> private practice impinge upon the liberties of ones fellows.
>
> One should be allowed to chose by social contract a lifestyle
> of adherence
> to that which outside society condemns be it one of strict religious
> observance or of libertarian indulgence.
>
> Those of us who uphold a social model of disability in any form should
> recognise this, that society has no right to determine what
> is deviant and
> sanction it so long as one is not forcing ones will upon others
>
> The point in both cases is that society is temporal and
> mutable and that in
> chosing a religios faith one surrenders to the inevitable
> judgement and
> trusts one has made the right choice.
>
> Larry
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: The Disability-Research Discussion List
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of
> Lillie,Timothy H
> > Sent: 13 December 2002 18:33
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Blair and Bush call themselves christians
> >
> >
> > Thanks to Madeleine for her candid comments. I, too, appreciate
> > this thread but more for what it says about the "correct"
> > worldview of most (if not all) of us on this list, than for
> > potential problems or not within a specific religious group.
> >
> > Who says that forbidding one gender to perform religious tasks is
> > "discriminatory?" Generally speaking, it is someone outside the
> > religion seeking to impose their (our) secular view of what
> > constitutes the "correct" way to view gender divisions. What I
> > am (and have been) arguing is that it is just as discriminatory
> > and totalitarian for us to force our beliefs about the role of
> > men or women in a particular religion as it would be if the
> > situation were reversed and an established religion insisted (for
> > instance) that in THEIR COUNTRY, women would not be allowed to
> > drive and must wear chadors. Ooops, I forgot: we already went
> > through that in Saudi Arabia a year or two ago.
> >
> > I say nothing about giving "room" inside faith communities to
> > determine their rituals and creeds or procedures because that is
> > not our business (with a few exceptions, as for example whether
> > parents who are Christian Scientists can forbid needed medical
> > care for their children) to tell them to abide by our norms.
> > They have their own. Further, who says that if I am a member of
> > Religion A, I have to abide by the rules for changing religious
> > principles that the secular society thinks are correct? If I try
> > to do that am I not then making a mockery of the principle of
> > religious freedom? I think so. I think I said somewhere (and if
> > not, I'm saying it now) that changes in religious principles need
> > to be made according to the beliefs, practices, and preferences
> > of those already within the religious community, not those
> > outside. Many USA Protestant sects, for instance, have very
> > clear and often democratic procedures for how religious
> > principles and practices are to be established, reviewed,
> > maintained, and changed. For that matter the (worldwide)
> > Catholic Church does as well; they are just not seen as
> > democratic or representative of "diversity," which is their
> > business, I argue, not mine.
> >
> > Having said that, let me (I think) reiterate that "toleration" of
> > a religious practice we find problematical is different from
> > "endorsing" that principle. Toleration is actually the "hold your
> > nose and put up with it" school, that (in my view) is the essence
> > of the notion of "diversity." If we all operate according to the
> > same principles and all believe the same things and all must
> > behave in the same ways, where is the diversity?
> >
> > The issue of who has power within a religious community or access
> > to the ladders of power is a very important issue. In my own
> > religious expression, I would not feel (as I said earlier) that a
> > church, mosque, synagogue, temple or other congregation that
> > promotes differential treatment of people on account of gender
> > and limits opportunities for one gender or the other is one I
> > would care to be part of.
> >
> > But: I will not simply keep silent when I believe that we are
> > being called to be dogmatic about what is what; disability
> > studies did not get where it is today by doing that but by
> > challenging dogma. Sometimes, I suggest, we need to do that to
> > our own cherished and valued belief systems to determine if we
> > hold them because "we always did it this way" or because they
> > have some firmer foundation.
> >
> > Thanks for the discussion.
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > Timothy Lillie, PhD
> > Dept. of Curricular & Instructional Studies
> > The University of Akron
> > Akron OH 44325-4205
> > 330-972-6746 (Voice)
> > 330-972-5209 (Fax)
> >
> >
>
>
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