medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Marjorie Greene <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>First, let me confess I didn't read to the end of your message.
well, of course not.
those last 12k are just there for show.
"Fire for Effect," as they say in the Artillery, once the target is nicely
>Saint-Denis, if one is to believe *most* books
i.e., the secondary literature?
believable if traceable back to the primary sources (in this case,
archeological evidence is as good as written sources).
>treating of its history, was originally a... basilica!
in definitions 1 and 2, i assume you mean --i.e., that the building itself was
"basilican" in *form* (or, perhaps, was thought to be such by some ancient
writer who so characterized it thus --*which* writer, btw?).
(now's about the time i wish i could find duCange on line, see what obscure
sources he cites under his entry for _BASILICA_.)
>"Built" by Sainte Genevieve over the supposed tomb of Denis in a cemetery of
the original name of the romano-gaulish settlement?
i don't think i've ever seen that one.
>and, according to ctault's posting, probably requiring the pope's
participation in its designation as such.
that's not my understanding, at all.
if some ancient source indeed refers to the building as a "basilica," it has
nothing whatever to do with the modern use of that term in the Roman church.
the place was --or was not-- a basilica because of it's architectural form,
not because of anything any pope did or did not do.
likewise, the modern designation of "basilica" has *nothing* whatever to do
with the particular architectural form which a building takes (the thrust of
CTAult's contribution), but is rather some sort of Papal designation, of
relatively quite recent date, concerning *only* its *institutional* character
and status among churches (note the distinction between "Greater" and "Lesser"
Basilicas in the CE article cited by someone else here recently).
thus, a *totally* different question.
>It was Dagobert who imported some Benedictines to care for the shrine and
pray for his ever-blackening soul. The church thus became a basilical
goodness, i don't believe i've ever, *ever* seen that wonderful mongrelisation
nicely blending languages, architectural terminologies and institutional
status, all at once, with a very nice ring to it, as well.
my hat's off to you on that one!
"Confusion to the Bugslags," i say!
and: "Pass the Bottle."
>If we are speaking of the _current_ edifice, which replaced/enlarged a
Carolingian S-D, then yes, it was "always" an abbatiale.
well, ever since the monks were introduced.
and, architecturally speaking, always will be, saecula saeculorum.
and the "original" or Dagobertan structure may have also been a "basilica"
(either in the sense that some ancient writer might have understood that term
and used it to describe the building/church, or in the much more strictly and
narrowly defined architectural sense of the term in current usage among Art
the latter question we cannot know for certain, since we certainly cannot
reconstruct that building's elevation, nor even, perhaps, its ground plan with
certainty (knowledge of both of which aspects are, to my mind, necessary for
the application of such an architectural designation).
>Depends on what the meaning of "is" is or of what "was" is ;-)))
well, i don't know as to how i would go *that* far.
it depends more on what the sense of "basilica"
p.s. out of consideration to some of our long-suffering list collegues who
might be paying for their bandwidth by the minute, it's probably not a good
idea to reproduce the *whole* of my already tediously long posts
--already too lengthy for some to finish, i'm told-- in response to just a
part of them.
i'm sure Moma George would agree.
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