it is an interesting question as to whether wo\man controls the 
system\machine or whether the system\machine controls wo\man.  In fact that 
is the crux of the matter and why it is worth reading Marx, or even just 
hearing about him.  I think stupidity might be more powerful than malice, 
but a good knowledge of Marxist economics might replace some of your unfaith 
in that stupidity and perhaps show you the instances where man has ceased to 
master the machine, and where the machine has begun to master man. PM






>From: "david.bircumshaw" <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry and  
>             poetics <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Numbers
>Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 16:35:51 -0000
>
>Paul
>
>oh I'm not too sure about the existence of the 'system', it's just a word I
>used as a verbal counter. A little chip to convey a meaning. I incline more
>to the 'cock-up' than the 'conspiracy' theory of history, I think there is 
>a
>kind of self-perpetuating machine of behaviour that affects human society,
>much to do with 'numbers' I suspect, but I don't think anyone's in control
>of the Beast. It happens because it happens.
>
>Best
>
>Dave
>
>
>David Bircumshaw
>
>Leicester, England
>
>Home Page
>
>A Chide's Alphabet
>
>Painting Without Numbers
>
>http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "paul murphy" <[log in to unmask]>
>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 4:21 PM
>Subject: Re: Numbers
>
>
>don´t be so sure if anything as a ´system´ really exists, not perhaps in 
>the
>rigid way in which you assume.  If it does exist there´s definitely a ´hole
>in the system´ (if a system can have a hole) somewhere off the coast of
>Southern Ireland, near Bantry Bay, where the French fleet encountered
>problems in 1798.  There may also be ´sea monsters and dragons´.  I think
>the euphemisms we encounter in the papers equate to the dragons etc of
>ancient mariners, PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "david.bircumshaw" <[log in to unmask]>
> >Reply-To: Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry 
>and
> >             poetics <[log in to unmask]>
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Subject: Re: Numbers
> >Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 15:14:34 -0000
> >
> > >You know I have no idea, David. This year I haven't written much 
>(except
> >in
> >a collaboration). Other years I'vr managed quite a bit. And look at the
> >other Douglas, insisting he has nothing to write, but there are all those
> >past ones, & the new one saying I can't write, but he does (don't you
> >Douglas?) while listening, again, to Dylan..
> >
> >Doug<
> >
> >Actualmente, Doug, I have a lot of sympathy for the 'other Doug' on this.
> >I've noticed an alarming decline in the quality of my own writing in 
>recent
> >months, the roots of this are tangled, all sorts of personal stuff seems
> >involved, as well as a sense of depression about the current cultural
> >situation, something which manifests itself to me in very direct ways, 
>it's
> >not an abstract concern. It's as if I've had the stuffing knocked out of
> >me,
> >it seems as if the antithesis of the creative has won the day. Last night
> >someone who has just moved into Arts Admin (at the age of 22) was 
>lecturing
> >me about my lack of marketing nous, poetry is 'a product' she told me and
> >if
> >I only contacted this number I would be given sound business advice on
> >furthering my work. I used to hold to the illusion that poetry was a
> >'protected space' free of the deadly forces of greed and money but now I
> >feel that it is becoming just another part of the 'system'.
> >
> >Best
> >
> >Dave
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >David Bircumshaw
> >
> >Leicester, England
> >
> >Home Page
> >
> >A Chide's Alphabet
> >
> >Painting Without Numbers
> >
> >http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Douglas Barbour" <[log in to unmask]>
> >To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 2:36 PM
> >Subject: Re: Numbers
> >
> >
> > >The other day I printed out and read through all the poems I have 
>written
> > >this year. It hasn't been quite so productive as some years, the grand
> >total
> > >was 18 poems, but 4 of them struck me as being in the direction I want.
> >It
> > >occurred to me too that about 4 to 6 poems a year of which one is
> >reasonably
> > >happy is a good 'strike rate' and I wondered what the opinions of 
>others
> >on
> > >this might be. Obviously I am thinking of an overall average here, 
>lucky
> > >streaks can happen!
> >
> >You know I have no idea, David. This year I haven't written much (except 
>in
> >a collaboration). Other years I'vr managed quite a bit. And look at the
> >other Douglas, insisting he has nothing to write, but there are all those
> >past ones, & the new one saying I can't write, but he does (don't you
> >Douglas?) while listening, again, to Dylan..
> >
> >Doug
> >
> >Douglas Barbour
> >Department of English
> >University of Alberta
> >Edmonton Alberta Canada T6G 2E5
> >(h) [780] 436 3320      (b) [780] 492 0521
> >http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/dbhome.htm
> >
> >         Is that the flesh made word
> >         or is that the flesh-made word?
> >
> >                         Fred Wah
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*
>http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus


_________________________________________________________________
Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online 
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963