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POETRYETC Home

POETRYETC  2002

POETRYETC 2002

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Subject:

Re: (no subject line given - that's for Frank - I agree with him)

From:

"david.bircumshaw" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry and poetics <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:02:01 -0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (204 lines)

> This is the same kind of agitprop that _100 Days_ promoted.  And
> where is Andrea Brady today?  With her accusations that the President
> of the United States is a moron and a drunkard and a cretin and all
> the rest?
>

Well, Ricardo, I can't comment on 100 days, as I haven't read the book, but
as for portrayals of Bush Junior as above, that's fairly common currency,
ordinary satirical programmes or cartoonists over here carry the same
picture, even right wing people I have spoken to assent to the view, he's a
puppet, and one with a limited vocabulary, one only has to watch him
speaking in public, those long pauses and the toilet-seat constipation with
which he drags out a semblance of a thought.

You've brought in the RadLibs again, as I've told you before, that's a
political vocabulary meaningless outside the US, and what this talk about
'if they don't they won't have a country' is doing here I don't know. What
happened to free speech, a belief in which I have always respected your
country for?

As for Pilger, his voice is necessary, dissent is needed, just as yours is
Richard, quid pro quo.

Best

Dave


David Bircumshaw

Leicester, England

Home Page

A Chide's Alphabet

Painting Without Numbers

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Dillon" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 3:53 PM


> How clever you are, L.
>
> You lift Pilger, you lazy rutter, and offer it up, offal and all.
>
> How clever you are, L.
>
> Now they are your views.  You lifted them and never told us when you
> lifted them that they weren't yours.
>
> You offered them the way a child would take a cookie to a friend.
> "Here, this is good, eat this."
>
> NO.  THERE IS NOTHING IMPLICIT.
>
> You either stand point for point with this rant or you don't.  And
> obviously, you don't because you can't.  And you can't because Pilger
> is a paid political provocateur.  He's a hustler and a bully and a
> fomenter and an agitpropster.
> So, what is a poet doing putting this kind of rant in front of us?
> Because it is interesting?
>
> Interesting to you?  And if so, why?  Why is it interesting to you?
> We've seen this before.  We know what this is.  You know we know what
> this is.  So what's the point?
>
> Right now, put up or shut up.
>
> This is the same kind of agitprop that _100 Days_ promoted.  And
> where is Andrea Brady today?  With her accusations that the President
> of the United States is a moron and a drunkard and a cretin and all
> the rest?
>
> What she did was slanderous and will haunt her career.  She's got a
> lot of time to think about it, too.  Because the RadLibs won't hold
> onto their power in the Ivy League forever as the politics move back
> towards the center and the current generation rebukes and refutes
> people like her.  And you.  And Pilger.
>
> Because if they don't, they won't have a country.
>
>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Richard Dillon" <[log in to unmask]>
> >To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >Sent: 01 February 2002 12:25
> >
> >
> >| John Pilger is a paid political activist and agitator for the World
> >| Socialist Review.  When I attempted several years ago to communicate
> >| with him directly he told me, "I don't give a shit about you or what
> >| you, or people like you, have to say."  And he doesn't.
> >
> >Perhaps you communicated more effectively than you know
> >
> >| Mr. Upton's views, shot at us by this use of Pilger's column,
> >
> >They are not my views. They are Mr Pilger's. If you look very carefully,
you
> >might see his name. That's why he put it there. That's why I left it
there
> >
> >It's one thing - if this is what you are getting at -  to express a view
and
> >then say *afterwards "I was just quoting". I sent the whole thing with
the
> >author's name on it. Implicit in that is "This is interesting" but I
haven't
> >told you my view on it. I live in a world in which any account other than
> >the official account is shouted down, as you are attempting to shout me
> >down - "the silencing of dissent" - and I passed on the words of someone
who
> >manages to be heard. There may well be inaccuracies, exaggerations etc. I
> >haven't gone into in that much detail yet. I read it quickly, it looked
> >interesting, it  is pertinent and I passed it on.
> >
> >  will
> >| require a point for point refutation
> >
> >why?
> >of whom?
> >are all his claims wrong?
> >and, if not all, are you saying it is necessary to appear to refute  them
> >anyway
> >
> >Unless I am to mistrust all the news media, I am sure that  the first
> >paragraph is accurate. You wish to refute it, do you? You think they've
> >caught bin Laden, do you? You think there is peace in Afghanistan because
> >there is some peace in Kabul? You believe the US govt is *not planning to
> >develop new  weapons, despite announcing itself that it plans just that?
You
> >think the number murdered by USUK action is not around 5000, do you? I
think
> >that's a UN figure. It's quite widely accepted. You dispute that the new
> >military budget is enough to end all primary causes of poverty in the
world?
> >Please show *your figures. You dispute that Rumsfeld said he told the
> >Pentagon to think the unthinkable? It was widely reported. You dispute
the
> >reports of Cheney's 50 years of war statement, do you? (Who do you think
did
> >his voice on the sound bites?). You dispute the summary of 1984 slogans?
> >Which edition are you using? You dispute that Somalia is in the firing
line?
> >You dispute that  there is oil off that country's coast? You dispute the
> >judgement on _Black Hawk Down_? (It's quite a widely held view) You
dispute
> >that maybe 10000 somalis were killed in 1993? You dispute the account of
> >Brzezinski's account of the Carter years? You dispute that Taliban means
> >student?  I look forward to your refutations. Maybe _heroic denial_ could
be
> >the next project
> >
> >  which will not affect Mr. Upton
> >| and, of course, Pilger.
> >
> >If you show  me that something in Pilger's article is wrong which I had
> >concluded was true, I shall of course be affected.
> >
> >| Do the writers on Poetry ETC want to see the list take the turn Mr.
> >| Upton seeks to take it?
> >
> >*I am a writer. I am also quite unable to "turn" (turn?) a list on my
own.
> >If the list were to "turn", whatever you mean by that, in a direction I
> >seek, it would have to be because many agreed to it. Would that be wrong?
> >Should they be arrested?
> >
> >It's news to me that I wish  to take it anywhere; but I do remember when
I
> >was suggesting that the bombing of Novi Sad in response to events in
Kosovo
> >had to be gratuitous, I received support from the then list-owner for my
> >stand against war
> >
> >You seem inordinately flustered by this article being posted here. Why
are
> >you so threatened by it? It was tangential tooursconcerns before but
youhave
> >made it central. How dare I express an unofficial view - back to
ecellence
> >in poetry, you; and keep your mouth shut
> >
> >Do you have so little respect for your fellow list members that you
believe
> >it is likely that they will be in some way corrupted & en masse. I think
> >they're harder-headed than that, by a long way. If I tried to impose my
> >views here I'd expect a good verbal dusting down
> >
> >I think you protest too much. Never mind about my plans for the list,
what's
> >your agenda?
> >
> >
> >L
>
>
> --
>

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