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POETRYETC Home

POETRYETC Home

POETRYETC  2002

POETRYETC 2002

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Subject:

Re: What language?

From:

Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry and poetics <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 29 May 2002 15:00:17 -0700

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (198 lines)

I remember now--you were that nasty little girl who liked to tease the
boys--it was the only way she knew to get attention.

[note--everyday English. Only one latinate word]

Basta. You seem to have too much time on your hands [no latinate words]

("hi, brother-in-language, why do you hate so much your mother in law?)"
[two latinate words. Mother doesn't count--it comes independently from
Indo-European into Proto-Germanic and Latin--it's one of the ways we know
they're from the same family.  Family is latinate]

I speak French and increasingly Spanish, and I translate both. My
Italian--I used to speak it a little--is very rusy. No hatred
involved--just a concern for accuracy. [Latinate: increasingly (but
Gernanic form), translate, involved (Germanic form), concern, accuracy]


At 10:42 PM 5/29/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>On Wed, 29 May 2002 14:24:49 -0700, Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]>
>wrote:
>I assume  you're just being argumentative#
>Io assumo tu sia giusto   argomentativa
>
>
> >They're both    Indo-European languages,
>  Sono   entrambe lingue Indo-Europee,
>
>
> >they're syntactically similar compared to say Japanese.
>  sono   sintaticamente simili  comparate allo Giapponese.
>
>
>And because Latin
>e poiche'  il Latino
> >and French
>e il Francese
>
>were for centuries the vehicles for scholarship and law
>furono per secoli   i  veicoli  di  scolastica    e legge
>
>
> >the similarities are most          apparent in texts like  (that of )
>Robin's,
>le   somiglianze sono maggiormante apparenti in testi simili a quello di
>Robin,
>
>learned terms in English have tended to
>termini colti in inglese      tendono a
> >be     latinate
>  essere latini
>
>
>(hi, brother-in-language, why do you hate so much your mother in law?)
>
>erminia
>
> >Because of its long connection to mainland Europe English adopted words
> >from Latin and the Romance languages. But it treats them syntactically as
> >if they were native. That's why for instance the imperfect in Latin
> >or  Romance languages is marked by endings containing a v or b and in
> >English it isn't.
> >
> >As to word order, both English and Romance languages independently lost
> >most of the case endings of nouns that characterize, on the one hand, the
> >other Germanic languages, and on the other Latin; that loss limits the
> >possibilities  for word placement. There remain, as your text demonstrates,
> >significant differences in the ordering of noun-adjective combinations and
> >pronouns.
> >
> >It's a question of different morphologies.
> >
> >Linguists classify languages according to their core syntax and vocabulary.
> >Despite its multitude of borrowings English remains Germanic.
> >
> >You might want to take a look at Grimm's Law.
> >
> >Mark
> >
> >At 09:38 PM 5/29/2002 +0100, you wrote:
> >>On Wed, 29 May 2002 18:21:06 +0100, Robin Hamilton
> >><[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >there's no way anyone can deny that --
> >>NON C'E'MODO DI NEGARLO --
> >>
> >>but the impact is on the level
> >>MA  L' IMPATTO E' SUL LIVELLO DEI
> >>
> >> >semantic borrowing.
> >>PRESTITI SEMANTICI.
> >>
> >>It (to   use   an  old-fashioned term)   "enriches"    the
> >>   (PER   USARE UN  VECCHIO      TERMINE) "ARRICCHISCE' LA
> >>
> >> >language.
> >>   LINGUA.
> >>
> >>But this    doesn't mean     that Latin
> >>MA  QUESTO NON SIGNIFICA     CHE  IL LATINO
> >>and   French  stand   in any  sort of
> >>E IL FRANCESE STIANO  IN UNA  SORTA DI
> >>
> >> >genetic            or 'paternal' relationship to English.  #
> >>RELAZIONE  GENETICA O  PARENTALE            CON L'INGLESE
> >>
> >>
> >>(oH, NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Scandinavian,   where,    for a
> >>LO SCANDINAVO, LADDOVE, PER UN
> >> >relatively long period,
> >>PERIODO RELATIVAMENTE LUNGO
> >>
> >>
> >>you have a +closely+ related      linguistic community
> >>S'E' AVUTA UNA COMUNITA' LINGUISTICA STRETTAMENTE CORRELATA
> >> >co-existing with English,
> >>CO-ESISTENTE CON L'INGLESE
> >>
> >>  had,      it's been argued,      a   much more profound  influence
> >>  HA AVUTO, E' STATO ARGOMENTATO , UNA MOLTO PIU' PROFONDA INFLUENZA
> >> >in the reduction a      grammatical classes.
> >>NELLA   RIDUZIONE DELLE  CLASSI GRAMMATICALI.....
> >>
> >>
> >>(SO, NOW PLEASE, PROVIDE ME WITH A SIMILARLY CLOSE TRANSLATION IN
>SCANDINAV
> >>OF THE ABOVE ENGLSIH SENTENCE THAT CLOSELY I HAVE RENDERED IN ITALIAN -
> >>BOTH FROM A SYNTHACTICAL POINT OF VIEW AND A SEMANTICAL ONE...
> >>
> >>
> >>AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED, THE RESEAMBLANCES WITH ITALIAN - AND LATIN - ARE
> >>FRIGHTNIGLY EVIDENT.....HERE
> >>
> >>
> >>ERMI
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>   But even there, where
> >> >there's an impact on syntax rather just vocabulary, it probably simply
> >> >accelerated changes that would have taken place anyway.
> >> >
> >> >[OK, I'll qualify that -- Latin impacted syntactically on English in the
> >> >prohibition of the double negative as an intensive form, and the split
> >> >infinitive.  Recently (if you accept the OED) the prohibition on the
>split
> >> >infinive has been reversed.  But "No, nay, never, no nay never no more"
>is
> >> >still unacceptable in Received Standard English.  But it still exists in
> >> >lots of non-RSE varieties of English.]
> >> >
> >> >> (I was merely using capital letters only to distinsguish my replies
>from
> >> >> your statements...not to shout at you, sorry)
> >> >
> >> >No problem.
> >> >
> >> >> what do i mean with Shakespeare's historical english? exactly the
> >>language
> >> >> that was spoken in England at the time of Shakespeare
> >> >
> >> >I +still+ have trouble with "the language that was spoken in England at
>the
> >> >time of Shakespeare".  The idea that one English was spoken then, rather
> >> >than a variety of Englishes.   Especially that "exactly" <g>.
> >> >
> >> >> and that Shakespeare helped canonize.
> >> >
> >> >There's a better case (such as it is) to be made for the King James
>Bible
> >> >fulfilling this role.  It was much more widely read, at least early on,
> >>than
> >> >Shakespeare, and more "authoritative".  Shakespeare only becomes the
> >> >(official) central figure that he is with Garrick and the 18thC
> >> >institutionalisation of his work.
> >> >
> >> >> The same as with Dante, no more no less.
> >> >
> >> >Which is where the parallel with Dante breaks down, I think.  Dante was
> >> >revered much more immediately.  Nobody (later) dismissed the crudity of
> >> >Dante's language in the fashion that Dryden (unexceptionally for his
>time)
> >> >slagged-off the language in Shakespeare's plays.
> >> >
> >> >> erminia (waiting for my hair to grow long again overnight during our
> >>usual
> >> >> Sabat).
> >> >
> >> >Luck!!
> >> >
> >> >Robin
>
>You invite me to a wedding of terms:

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