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Subject:

Re: Poetry

From:

mark dickinson <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry and poetics <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 29 May 2002 20:39:50 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (453 lines)

 Evening Alison,

I was indeed thinking of Nietzsche's law of Eternal Recurrence. Especially
of Zarathustra and the Great bridge surrounded by cripples and beggars: 'And
how can I endure to be a man, if man were not also poet and reader of
riddles and the redeemer of chance!
'To redeem the past and to transform every 'it was' into 'I wanted it
thus!' - that alone do I call redemption.'

I too like the 'serious child' in Nietzsche. and I've also dropped

in a poem.



                                 Poetry has the right to children

echoes the past and this child is read and fun the freedom thing though not
  as well. She plays on swings and thus with words she makes a thing as
 splendid as the first - This miniature of moment an 'egg with sun inside a
cloud' - This most original and voices it - 'a little of the past before the
void
came in'. She plays with shell and as the swell begins its course she makes
  to murmur of the 'whale at sea', then 'Sound of sea', then kicking 'K'
Kulture is for kiddies grown big - And curly 'C' culture is the sea grown
large
 - This most diverse but all delectable scope of things. She enters night
and
dreams of colour and the word kaleidoscope of scene and seen - To melt and
match and drift away - no torrent of abuse or dark abandonment - the word
  is play and such and such the freedom of our leisure. The twist is Levi's
and / the word expendable. The Gimmicks in the nation and proud to be. Her
  tent is filled with flowers and no punning golden showers of a furtive
age.


Hopefully it should arrive as a block thirteen, apologies if not. I Hope its
got something.

Love

mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alison Croggon" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 10:49 PM
Subject: Re: Poetry


> Hi Mark
>
> Do you mean Nietzsche's law of Eternal Recurrence?  I can't remember
> it being redemptive, though it is quite a while since I've read
> Nietzsche to any length; and the Nietzsche whom I have most enjoyed
> is in The Gay Science.  I think I always read Nietzsche against
> himself, quite possibly erroneously (though I keep the privilege of
> error jealously) which is why I have largely found him funny;
> tragically funny, of course.  What attracts me is I think the
> "laughter over the abyss", which Bataille picks up on, in On
> Nietzsche - the gamble and the "innocence of risk" (God's infantalism
> and the play of uselessness).
>
> Best
>
> A
>
>
>
> >Beauty as a term is a bone of contention, I think I shore it round me in
> >order to defend an ideal, I seek it even in the gutters. I don't think I
> >could live in a world that didn't have beauty. Perhaps. The world is full
of
> >unhappiness and people can't simply talk amongst them selves, they must
> >defend the invisible lines of history or hers with violent acts. I look
at
> >parts of world and I'm unhappy. You have places of beauty you can return
to
> >and they move you Lawrence. That is a beautiful thing. I need beauty!
> >
> >Allot of my friends, those that are left, suffer from addictions,
Nostalgia
> >is currently their only remaining hope. They are not bad people like some
> >people would like to think. They played in the sea, walked and climbed
and
> >could appreciate the beauty in most of what they saw. They are like empty
> >shells now, but every time I see them, they withdraw to a distant past, a
> >day that was happy, a moment tinged with beauty, and they have a light in
> >their eyes again.
> >
> >I am going to read 'AL Rowse's _A Cornish Childhood', thank you Alison,
and
> >Lawrence - for your enlightening correspondence.
> >
> >I agree with Nietzsche that nostalgia is a deathly thing. I am not that
> >clear on Nietzsche though, I am not yet prepared for him, entirely, but
> >doesn't Nietzsche also talk of a circular redemption, which could be read
as
> >a disempowerment of Nostalgia making nostalgia something more
recuperative /
> >redemptive.This is possibly what you are referring to when to say it
'might
> >end up being the same thing'.
> >
> >I am in water too deep, please tell me if I am being tiresome, vague or
even
> >worse misunderstanding. It is always better to know your faults else you
> >can't change 'um.
> >
> >Thank you Anny!
> >
> >Anyway I wanted to talk about Milton and Paradise and the the 'Ideology
of
> >Hope' and George Herbert. Shining lights in Dark times. But the labour of
> >the day has tired me out, so I'll just read, keep quite and learn for a
bit.
> >
> >the best to you all
> >
> >mark
> >
> >PS. The Pigeon is the latest, the last was a Blackbird, nominated the
sixth
> >most beautiful singer in Europe! It nests in the backyard now, reared
from a
> >wind fallen chick. And then their was the seagull, he was also young and
has
> >succesfully made his home overhead. I think on Pounds 'Pigeons' and the
one
> >of the only bits of Italian I know.
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Lawrence Upton" <[log in to unmask]>
> >To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 12:56 AM
> >Subject: Re: Poetry
> >
> >
> >>  Hi Mark
> >>
> >>  If I sounded as if I know about birds, I have misled you. I just know
that
> >>  pigeons in houses dont live long and that birds need to wash their
wings
> >to
> >>  avoid infestation and to exercise and tend them if they are to
function
> >>
> >>  I suspect that if its wing's damaged it is in deep trouble. Without
expert
> >>  advice / knowledge, my inclination is to trust the pigeon but not
harbour
> >>  any hopes for an Androcles-style avian friendship in future
> >>
> >>  Glad you like my dream project poem - genuinely glad, especially if
you
> >find
> >>  it beautiful; but I'll change the subject
> >>
> >>  I wondered if you were coming from the neo-Platonic... Hopkins is, of
> >>  course, if indirectly
> >>
> >>  Shelley is a poet of major importance to me and I got much more out of
him
> >>  as I began to get a hold on the philosophical ideas he was using, but
I
> >  > don't
> >>  like them. You mention Yeats. Yeats produced astounding writing out of
> >some
> >>  utter claptrap
> >>
> >>  I used to train myself to bark at beauty till I realised it wasn't the
> >>  experience of beauty which antagonised me but the sloppy use of the
term;
> >>  and then I began antagonistic chasing of beauty as a sugarcandy
mountain
> >>  promise
> >>
> >>  I wonder and worry about this. As I do of ideas of Paradise. There
being
> >no
> >>  paradise (I assert), how is that we are, collectively, at least dogged
by
> >>  them?
> >>
> >>  Maybe as a rationalisation or just expression of a sense of loss...
and
> >loss
> >>  is going to cut in given our mortality and given all being mutability,
> >even
> >>  without the efforts of airheads with armaments flattening places  and
> >people
> >>  that were better off unflattened. Taken head on, we can do something
with
> >>  beauty, but the danger of sentimentality is there always like a drop
> >without
> >>  a railing
> >>
> >>  The excited edge to the apprehension of beauty probably comes from
lack,
> >>  which will hone the desire for whatever is beloved. In late March /
early
> >>  April, I spent a couple of weeks with spectacular sunsets every day;
and,
> >>  while they never palled, I was less and less inclined to stand
shivering
> >on
> >>  the beach watching the whole show *every night; and I was soon trading
> >some
> >>  of it for the opportunity to wash myself while there was still some
warmth
> >>  left in the air - I was roughing it
> >>
> >>  On the other hand, I then found myself daily in a familiar position,
> >looking
> >>  down a hill of oddly shaped rooves, each familiar to me, for about
three
> >>  weeks, a view I know  well. It isn't a ravishing view, but there's
> >something
> >>  to it, there's a sort of Ben Nicolson elegance to  it,and I never tire
of
> >>  it. In fact, I am missing it with some discomfort now
> >>
> >>  & when I am in west cornwall, wch is where I am talking about, I
nearly
> >>  always clamber up Zennor Tor, which is, despite the collapsed quoit,
more
> >an
> >>  abandoned industrial site than anything. Wordsworth's "visionary
> >dreariness"
> >>  might be made for it - and I think a lot of the "magical Cornwall"
stuff
> >is
> >>  people seeing what they want to see, not what is in front of them -
yet
> >>  beauty is probably  a good word for it
> >>
> >>  It's just that "beauty" doesn't mean "very pretty"
> >>
> >>  *
> >>  I wonder if cris cheek is  here and if he  remembers driving back from
> >>  cumbria about 20 years and a good joke he made
> >>
> >>  we went up and over a hill to be faced with a sky near as damn it the
> >cover
> >>  of the  then paperback of The Prelude
> >>
> >>  I remarked on that and, I imagine there was a conversation now long
> >>  forgotten; but I do remember cris doing the poets in different voices
> >>
> >>  He: Mary, go up that mountain and see what it's like
> >>
> >>  She: [panting as from exertion] It's beautiful, William
> >>
> >>  He: OK, make a note of that, will you
> >>
> >>  *
> >>
> >>  Thanks for that Alison. I have begun to notice that there are certain
> >pieces
> >>  of music I am somewhat apprehensive about hearing because the pleasure
of
> >>  them is almost racking sometimes
> >>
> >>  L
> >>
> >>  ----- Original Message -----
> >>  From: "mark dickinson" <[log in to unmask]>
> >>  To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >>  Sent: 27 May 2002 23:40
> >>  Subject: Re: Poetry
> >>
> >>
> >>  | Lawrence, I shall reply as best as I can with what first comes to
mind.
> >>  I'm
> >>  | sat here thinking, still. I 'll tell you what I am thinking. Peter
> >Larkin
> >>
> >>  | talks in terms of 'scarcity', I am thinking of a beauty which is
> >'here' -
> >>  | 'in reality' but a beauty which is 'scarce' due to the depreciation
of
> >>  | relations, possibly - to and of, if this makes sense. Shelly, taking
> >from
> >>  | Plato speaks of 'the one spirit plastic stress', and Hopkins has
> >>  'inscape',
> >>  | and in this thread I trace an idea of beauty, that I can feel and
> >possibly
> >>  | work toward. I walk, like yourself in beautiful areas, I live in a
> >>  beautiful
> >>  | area, and I forget it. It is beautiful because the sound of the
forest
> >>  even
> >>  | in its ironic mutation is all around me, and I remember, hearing
'voices
> >>  in
> >>  | the orchard playing', and suddenly I remember and it's all quite
> >'still'.
> >>  | Sorry about all of this, it's the only way I can respond. Your Poem
in
> >the
> >>  | 'The Dream Project' is beautiful... I've just thought of Yeat's and
his
> >>  | 'terrible beauty', and onto Bacon who knew how to paint it, I think.
It
> >is
> >>  | an impression in my mind. Like an explosion in space. The image
appears
> >>  like
> >>  | a snapshot, a moment petrified.
> >>  |
> >>  | Thank you for the info on the pigeon, the pigeon's wing may be
damaged
> >>  quite
> >>  | badly from the fall, should I allow h/er to exercise it still?
> >>  |
> >>  | Thanks for yours, and I hope this lack of precision offers at least
a
> >>  vague
> >>  | impression.
> >>  |
> >>  | mark
> >>  | ----- Original Message -----
> >>  | From: "Lawrence Upton" <[log in to unmask]>
> >>  | To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >>  | Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 9:50 PM
> >>  | Subject: Re: Poetry
> >>  |
> >>  |
> >>  | > Mark, where do you think this idea of beauty comes from?
> >>  | >
> >>  | > Often, finding beauty, is a matter of looking, perhaps looking
> >>  | > differently...
> >>  | >
> >>  | > I spend quite a bit of time in an area already classified as
> >>  "outstanding
> >>  | > natural beauty" and up for other similar categorisation; and I
note 2
> >>  | things
> >>  | > in particular
> >>  | >
> >>  | > one - the people who live there don't seem to notice the beauty of
it,
> >>  not
> >>  | > in quite the same way as I... I had a character in a poem chat
about
> >>  this
> >>  | > once and "he" thought one becomes acclimatised  to it, comparing
it to
> >>  the
> >>  | > love of another which replaces the initial falling in love with
them
> >>  | >
> >>  | > two - that talking to others who are not living permanently in it,
> >some
> >>  | seem
> >>  | > to be constructing their beauty of it in quite a different way to
me -
> >>  | that
> >>  | > the aspects / things I find most exciting are not those which
others
> >>  find
> >>  | > most exciting (I realise that switching from apprehension of
beauty to
> >>  | > excitement is a little suspect)
> >>  | >
> >>  | > *and I meet those who find it all dull, and who go looking for
> >>  | "attractions"
> >>  | >
> >>  | > but if I read you correctly you are sensing a beauty which is not
> >quite
> >>  | > located "here" - "in reality" as you say
> >>  | >
> >>  | > Where does such an idea come from?
> >>  | >
> >>  | > That's a plato to nato question, I know... So where do *you get it
> >>  from?
> >>  | >
> >>  | > (Having saved and lost pigeons,I think the trick is to get them
out of
> >>  bed
> >>  | > and back to work asap) (and make sure it has enough water to wash
or
> >its
> >>  | > flight may be impaired)
> >>  | >
> >>  | >
> >>  | > L
> >>  | >
> >>  | > ----- Original Message -----
> >>  | > From: "mark dickinson" <[log in to unmask]>
> >>  | > To: <[log in to unmask]>
> >>  | > Sent: 27 May 2002 21:20
> >>  | > Subject: Poetry
> >>  | >
> >>  | >
> >>  | > 'this stunning beauty that allows mere contemplation'
> >>  | >
> >>  | > I like the ideal of contemplating this kind of beauty set against
my
> >>  | > realisation of a lack of this in reality. I enjoyed the sounds
that
> >>  | presided
> >>  | > in the 'HIGH LOVELY SMELL', a poem's sounds, which I lovingly
rolled
> >off
> >>  | my
> >>  | > tongue, aloud, in my living room, before my inner child was awoken
and
> >>  | > joyously played with the 'nose' that 'picks up on a thing or too';
> >this
> >>  | had
> >>  | > me feeling for play. And then the frighteningly beautiful silence
that
> >I
> >>  | > found haunting me in 'curious omens'. I want to talk about 'Power
and
> >>  | > Weakness' too. But perhaps my language is to weak and ineffectual
to
> >>  fully
> >>  | > respond.
> >>  | >
> >>  | > A pigeon was shot outside my flat by a guy with an air-pistol in
the
> >>  room
> >>  | > opposite. Left it to die. I've got the pigeon, I think it'll live!
It
> >>  must
> >>  | > be confused. One of me shot the bird and the another wants to help
it
> >>  | live.
> >>  | > Confused.
> >>  | >
> >>  | > Love,
> >>  | > mark
> >>  | >
> >>  | > I am learning from you all. Thank you!
> >>  | >
> >>  |
> >>
>
> --
>
> "The only real revolt is the revolt against war."
>                                         Albert Camus
>
> Alison Croggon
> Home page
> http://www.users.bigpond.com/acroggon/
>
> Masthead Online
> http://au.geocities.com/masthead_2/
>

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