JiscMail Logo
Email discussion lists for the UK Education and Research communities

Help for POETRYETC Archives


POETRYETC Archives

POETRYETC Archives


POETRYETC@JISCMAIL.AC.UK


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

POETRYETC Home

POETRYETC Home

POETRYETC  2002

POETRYETC 2002

Options

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password

Subject:

Re: Poetry

From:

Lawrence Upton <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry and poetics <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 28 May 2002 21:17:21 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (362 lines)

Blimey, youre an ornithologist. I'll shut up.

I don't think youre being tiresome in your speculations. It's a dangerous
area and I am glad that you are willing to explore it

Future exploration plans sound interesting -  Herbert and Milton

all best

L
----- Original Message -----
From: "mark dickinson" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 28 May 2002 20:41
Subject: Re: Poetry


| Beauty as a term is a bone of contention, I think I shore it round me in
| order to defend an ideal, I seek it even in the gutters. I don't think I
| could live in a world that didn't have beauty. Perhaps. The world is full
of
| unhappiness and people can't simply talk amongst them selves, they must
| defend the invisible lines of history or hers with violent acts. I look at
| parts of world and I'm unhappy. You have places of beauty you can return
to
| and they move you Lawrence. That is a beautiful thing. I need beauty!
|
| Allot of my friends, those that are left, suffer from addictions,
Nostalgia
| is currently their only remaining hope. They are not bad people like some
| people would like to think. They played in the sea, walked and climbed and
| could appreciate the beauty in most of what they saw. They are like empty
| shells now, but every time I see them, they withdraw to a distant past, a
| day that was happy, a moment tinged with beauty, and they have a light in
| their eyes again.
|
| I am going to read 'AL Rowse's _A Cornish Childhood', thank you Alison,
and
| Lawrence - for your enlightening correspondence.
|
| I agree with Nietzsche that nostalgia is a deathly thing. I am not that
| clear on Nietzsche though, I am not yet prepared for him, entirely, but
| doesn't Nietzsche also talk of a circular redemption, which could be read
as
| a disempowerment of Nostalgia making nostalgia something more recuperative
/
| redemptive.This is possibly what you are referring to when to say it
'might
| end up being the same thing'.
|
| I am in water too deep, please tell me if I am being tiresome, vague or
even
| worse misunderstanding. It is always better to know your faults else you
| can't change 'um.
|
| Thank you Anny!
|
| Anyway I wanted to talk about Milton and Paradise and the the 'Ideology
of
| Hope' and George Herbert. Shining lights in Dark times. But the labour of
| the day has tired me out, so I'll just read, keep quite and learn for a
bit.
|
| the best to you all
|
| mark
|
| PS. The Pigeon is the latest, the last was a Blackbird, nominated the
sixth
| most beautiful singer in Europe! It nests in the backyard now, reared from
a
| wind fallen chick. And then their was the seagull, he was also young and
has
| succesfully made his home overhead. I think on Pounds 'Pigeons' and the
one
| of the only bits of Italian I know.
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: "Lawrence Upton" <[log in to unmask]>
| To: <[log in to unmask]>
| Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 12:56 AM
| Subject: Re: Poetry
|
|
| > Hi Mark
| >
| > If I sounded as if I know about birds, I have misled you. I just know
that
| > pigeons in houses dont live long and that birds need to wash their wings
| to
| > avoid infestation and to exercise and tend them if they are to function
| >
| > I suspect that if its wing's damaged it is in deep trouble. Without
expert
| > advice / knowledge, my inclination is to trust the pigeon but not
harbour
| > any hopes for an Androcles-style avian friendship in future
| >
| > Glad you like my dream project poem - genuinely glad, especially if you
| find
| > it beautiful; but I'll change the subject
| >
| > I wondered if you were coming from the neo-Platonic... Hopkins is, of
| > course, if indirectly
| >
| > Shelley is a poet of major importance to me and I got much more out of
him
| > as I began to get a hold on the philosophical ideas he was using, but I
| > don't
| > like them. You mention Yeats. Yeats produced astounding writing out of
| some
| > utter claptrap
| >
| > I used to train myself to bark at beauty till I realised it wasn't the
| > experience of beauty which antagonised me but the sloppy use of the
term;
| > and then I began antagonistic chasing of beauty as a sugarcandy mountain
| > promise
| >
| > I wonder and worry about this. As I do of ideas of Paradise. There being
| no
| > paradise (I assert), how is that we are, collectively, at least dogged
by
| > them?
| >
| > Maybe as a rationalisation or just expression of a sense of loss... and
| loss
| > is going to cut in given our mortality and given all being mutability,
| even
| > without the efforts of airheads with armaments flattening places  and
| people
| > that were better off unflattened. Taken head on, we can do something
with
| > beauty, but the danger of sentimentality is there always like a drop
| without
| > a railing
| >
| > The excited edge to the apprehension of beauty probably comes from lack,
| > which will hone the desire for whatever is beloved. In late March /
early
| > April, I spent a couple of weeks with spectacular sunsets every day;
and,
| > while they never palled, I was less and less inclined to stand shivering
| on
| > the beach watching the whole show *every night; and I was soon trading
| some
| > of it for the opportunity to wash myself while there was still some
warmth
| > left in the air - I was roughing it
| >
| > On the other hand, I then found myself daily in a familiar position,
| looking
| > down a hill of oddly shaped rooves, each familiar to me, for about three
| > weeks, a view I know  well. It isn't a ravishing view, but there's
| something
| > to it, there's a sort of Ben Nicolson elegance to  it,and I never tire
of
| > it. In fact, I am missing it with some discomfort now
| >
| > & when I am in west cornwall, wch is where I am talking about, I nearly
| > always clamber up Zennor Tor, which is, despite the collapsed quoit,
more
| an
| > abandoned industrial site than anything. Wordsworth's "visionary
| dreariness"
| > might be made for it - and I think a lot of the "magical Cornwall" stuff
| is
| > people seeing what they want to see, not what is in front of them - yet
| > beauty is probably  a good word for it
| >
| > It's just that "beauty" doesn't mean "very pretty"
| >
| > *
| > I wonder if cris cheek is  here and if he  remembers driving back from
| > cumbria about 20 years and a good joke he made
| >
| > we went up and over a hill to be faced with a sky near as damn it the
| cover
| > of the  then paperback of The Prelude
| >
| > I remarked on that and, I imagine there was a conversation now long
| > forgotten; but I do remember cris doing the poets in different voices
| >
| > He: Mary, go up that mountain and see what it's like
| >
| > She: [panting as from exertion] It's beautiful, William
| >
| > He: OK, make a note of that, will you
| >
| > *
| >
| > Thanks for that Alison. I have begun to notice that there are certain
| pieces
| > of music I am somewhat apprehensive about hearing because the pleasure
of
| > them is almost racking sometimes
| >
| > L
| >
| > ----- Original Message -----
| > From: "mark dickinson" <[log in to unmask]>
| > To: <[log in to unmask]>
| > Sent: 27 May 2002 23:40
| > Subject: Re: Poetry
| >
| >
| > | Lawrence, I shall reply as best as I can with what first comes to
mind.
| > I'm
| > | sat here thinking, still. I 'll tell you what I am thinking. Peter
| Larkin
| >
| > | talks in terms of 'scarcity', I am thinking of a beauty which is
| 'here' -
| > | 'in reality' but a beauty which is 'scarce' due to the depreciation of
| > | relations, possibly - to and of, if this makes sense. Shelly, taking
| from
| > | Plato speaks of 'the one spirit plastic stress', and Hopkins has
| > 'inscape',
| > | and in this thread I trace an idea of beauty, that I can feel and
| possibly
| > | work toward. I walk, like yourself in beautiful areas, I live in a
| > beautiful
| > | area, and I forget it. It is beautiful because the sound of the forest
| > even
| > | in its ironic mutation is all around me, and I remember, hearing
'voices
| > in
| > | the orchard playing', and suddenly I remember and it's all quite
| 'still'.
| > | Sorry about all of this, it's the only way I can respond. Your Poem in
| the
| > | 'The Dream Project' is beautiful... I've just thought of Yeat's and
his
| > | 'terrible beauty', and onto Bacon who knew how to paint it, I think.
It
| is
| > | an impression in my mind. Like an explosion in space. The image
appears
| > like
| > | a snapshot, a moment petrified.
| > |
| > | Thank you for the info on the pigeon, the pigeon's wing may be damaged
| > quite
| > | badly from the fall, should I allow h/er to exercise it still?
| > |
| > | Thanks for yours, and I hope this lack of precision offers at least a
| > vague
| > | impression.
| > |
| > | mark
| > | ----- Original Message -----
| > | From: "Lawrence Upton" <[log in to unmask]>
| > | To: <[log in to unmask]>
| > | Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 9:50 PM
| > | Subject: Re: Poetry
| > |
| > |
| > | > Mark, where do you think this idea of beauty comes from?
| > | >
| > | > Often, finding beauty, is a matter of looking, perhaps looking
| > | > differently...
| > | >
| > | > I spend quite a bit of time in an area already classified as
| > "outstanding
| > | > natural beauty" and up for other similar categorisation; and I note
2
| > | things
| > | > in particular
| > | >
| > | > one - the people who live there don't seem to notice the beauty of
it,
| > not
| > | > in quite the same way as I... I had a character in a poem chat about
| > this
| > | > once and "he" thought one becomes acclimatised  to it, comparing it
to
| > the
| > | > love of another which replaces the initial falling in love with them
| > | >
| > | > two - that talking to others who are not living permanently in it,
| some
| > | seem
| > | > to be constructing their beauty of it in quite a different way to
me -
| > | that
| > | > the aspects / things I find most exciting are not those which
others
| > find
| > | > most exciting (I realise that switching from apprehension of beauty
to
| > | > excitement is a little suspect)
| > | >
| > | > *and I meet those who find it all dull, and who go looking for
| > | "attractions"
| > | >
| > | > but if I read you correctly you are sensing a beauty which is not
| quite
| > | > located "here" - "in reality" as you say
| > | >
| > | > Where does such an idea come from?
| > | >
| > | > That's a plato to nato question, I know... So where do *you get it
| > from?
| > | >
| > | > (Having saved and lost pigeons,I think the trick is to get them out
of
| > bed
| > | > and back to work asap) (and make sure it has enough water to wash or
| its
| > | > flight may be impaired)
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > L
| > | >
| > | > ----- Original Message -----
| > | > From: "mark dickinson" <[log in to unmask]>
| > | > To: <[log in to unmask]>
| > | > Sent: 27 May 2002 21:20
| > | > Subject: Poetry
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > 'this stunning beauty that allows mere contemplation'
| > | >
| > | > I like the ideal of contemplating this kind of beauty set against my
| > | > realisation of a lack of this in reality. I enjoyed the sounds that
| > | presided
| > | > in the 'HIGH LOVELY SMELL', a poem's sounds, which I lovingly rolled
| off
| > | my
| > | > tongue, aloud, in my living room, before my inner child was awoken
and
| > | > joyously played with the 'nose' that 'picks up on a thing or too';
| this
| > | had
| > | > me feeling for play. And then the frighteningly beautiful silence
that
| I
| > | > found haunting me in 'curious omens'. I want to talk about 'Power
and
| > | > Weakness' too. But perhaps my language is to weak and ineffectual to
| > fully
| > | > respond.
| > | >
| > | > A pigeon was shot outside my flat by a guy with an air-pistol in the
| > room
| > | > opposite. Left it to die. I've got the pigeon, I think it'll live!
It
| > must
| > | > be confused. One of me shot the bird and the another wants to help
it
| > | live.
| > | > Confused.
| > | >
| > | > Love,
| > | > mark
| > | >
| > | > I am learning from you all. Thank you!
| > | >
| > |
| >
|

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

JiscMail Tools


RSS Feeds and Sharing


Advanced Options


Archives

April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
January 2020
December 2019
November 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
October 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
November 2016
October 2016
September 2016
August 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
January 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
August 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
2005
2004
2003
2002
2001
2000


JiscMail is a Jisc service.

View our service policies at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ and Jisc's privacy policy at https://www.jisc.ac.uk/website/privacy-notice

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager