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Date: Sat, 21 Sep 2002 00:00:26 -0500
From: Automatic digest processor <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: VICTORIA 19th-Century British Culture & Society
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Subject: VICTORIA Digest - 19 Sep 2002 to 20 Sep 2002 (#2002-259)
To: Recipients of VICTORIA digests <[log in to unmask]>
There are 11 messages totalling 370 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Teaching Mary Barton--a question (3)
2. Tennyson's Ulysses (6)
3. FW: Teaching Mary Barton--a question
4. Senior position
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Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 09:42:41 +0100
From: Chris Willis <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Teaching Mary Barton--a question
Hi!
>Every single
>one of my 13 freshmen said that they had absolutely expected that when
>Mary got into the small boat with the strange gruff sailors, she would
>be set upon and raped.
I may be missing something here, but are you sure your students' response to
this scene is based purely on class? We all have "don't take lifts from
strangers" hammered into us from earliest childhood - the class of the
person(s) giving the lift has nothing to do with it!
After all, would any women on this list be happy to accept a lift from a
group of male strangers if she was travelling alone? It's exactly what
police, the Suzy Lamplugh Trust, etc are continually warning women against.
Readers have the same reaction when Alec d'Urberville "rescues" Tess from
her workmates, and Alec's distinctly upper-class.
Given that narratives of sexual danger were not exactly unknown in Victorian
texts, I wonder whether some of Gaskell's Victorian readers would have had a
similar reaction? I suppose it's even just about possible that she set the
scene up that way deliberately and enjoyed confounding readers' expectations
about men and/or the working classes.
All the best
Chris
================================================================
Chris Willis - London Metropolitan University
[log in to unmask]
http://www.chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk/
"Every gun that is fired, every warship launched, every rocket fired
signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not
fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. The world in arms is not
spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius
of its scientists, the hopes of its children."
Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1953
www.stopwar.org.uk
================================================================
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Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 09:42:11 -0400
From: David Latane <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Teaching Mary Barton--a question
Chris Willis wrote:
>>Every single
>>one of my 13 freshmen said that they had absolutely expected that when
>>Mary got into the small boat with the strange gruff sailors, she would
>>be set upon and raped.
>>
>
>I may be missing something here, but are you sure your students' response to
>this scene is based purely on class? We all have "don't take lifts from
>strangers" hammered into us from earliest childhood - the class of the
>person(s) giving the lift has nothing to do with it!
>
>After all, would any women on this list be happy to accept a lift from a
>group of male strangers if she was traveling alone? It's exactly what
>police, the Suzy Lamplugh Trust, etc are continually warning women against.
>
>Readers have the same reaction when Alec d'Urberville "rescues" Tess from
>her workmates, and Alec's distinctly upper-class.
>
>Given that narratives of sexual danger were not exactly unknown in Victorian
>texts, I wonder whether some of Gaskell's Victorian readers would have had a
>similar reaction? I suppose it's even just about possible that she set the
>scene up that way deliberately and enjoyed confounding readers' expectations
>about men and/or the working classes.
>
I don't remember in my perusals of crime reports (while looking for
other things in the newspapers) accounts of gang rapes, and I don't know
how many Victorian readers would have expected one in MB. Perhaps the
presence of so many witnesses for a capital crime was a deterrent, who
knows? Given the tenor of the melodrama, Alec d'Urberville's behavior
would have been much more predictable.
David Latané
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:35:04 -0400
From: Meri-Jane Rochelson <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Teaching Mary Barton--a question
I agree that fears instilled in today's students are likely to have spurred
this reaction to Mary Barton and the boatmen. But Gaskell hints, too, that
Mary was putting herself in a situation where her moral status (for want of
a better term) might have been put into question, leading to unwanted sexual
attention. The old man at the docks "eye[s] her from head to
foot"--ascertaining that she's virtuous, but apparently having at first
suspected otherwise, and the men on the boat suspect that Mary really just
wants "a last look at her sweetheart." I think vague possibilities of
danger are suggested in the Liverpool episode, while Gaskell emphasizes how
Mary's
ennobling virtue and commitment to her goal have an affect on those who meet
her that makes the realization of such threat impossible.
It's this last part that the students missed, and it is clearly signaled, I
think. Their extreme reaction may well have been fed by current fears more
than by their reading. But it is also not entirely without a textual basis.
Meri-Jane Rochelson
Florida International University
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 14:01:30 EDT
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Tennyson's Ulysses
As I am preparing to teach Tennyson, I am having difficulty with the first
line of Ulysses, "It little profits that an idle king". How does this phrase
fit grammatically with the rest of the first verse paragraph?
It little profits that an idle king,
By this still hearth, among these barren crags,
Match'd with an aged wife, I mete and dole
Unequal laws unto a savage race,
That hoard, and sleep, and feed, and know not me.
Abigail Burnham Bloom
[log in to unmask]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:34:48 -0400
From: "Rodrick, Anne B." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: FW: Teaching Mary Barton--a question
I sent this to David and meant to send it to the list--sorry!
Anne Rodrick
Assistant Professor of History
Wofford College
-----Original Message-----
From: Rodrick, Anne B.
Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 11:32 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: RE: Teaching Mary Barton--a question
David Latane wrote:
I don't remember in my perusals of crime reports (while looking for
other things in the newspapers) accounts of gang rapes, and I don't know
how many Victorian readers would have expected one in MB. Perhaps the
presence of so many witnesses for a capital crime was a deterrent, who
knows? Given the tenor of the melodrama, Alec d'Urberville's behavior
would have been much more predictable.
I would have to agree--I haven't run across many of these either. Since
I was the originator of this question, I should say again how we have
spent several weeks talking about how EG carefully, carefully builds up
a world where even gruff working class men (like John Barton, who
apologizes after he beats Mary on one occasion) are extraordinary kind
and tender to one another, and that within this world sympathy among
individuals in this class is a key characteristic. The example of
Esther, to my students, didn't signal overall sexual predation--Esther
was not raped as they feared Mary would be, and even Harry's
stalking--which they found abhorrent--was an example of upper class
exploiting working class. With all this in mind, the idea that working
men, not middle or upper middle class men, could set upon Mary was so
repugnant and so unexpected that they were very upset--simply *because*
it appeared so out of character within the world of hte novel and yet,
for them, it was such a fact of modern narratives that they read the
boat scene with that in mind.
Anne Rodrick
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:51:48 -0400
From: Hunt Hawkins <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Senior position
Associate or Full Professor of English. Nineteenth-Century British
Literature. Tenure-track, Fall 2003. Ph.D. required. Significant book
publication required as well as successful teaching experience. 2/2
teaching assignment with one graduate course per year. Letter and vita only
to Hunt Hawkins, Chair, Department of English, Florida State University,
Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580. AA/EOE employer. Minorities, persons with
disabilities, and women encouraged to apply.
Hunt Hawkins [log in to unmask]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 14:24:19 -0400
From: Glenn Everett <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Tennyson's Ulysses
Grammatically, it would be easier to understand this sentence if you moved
elements of it around. Further, crucial parts of it have been elided:
"It profits (anyone) little that I, (BEING) an idle king, (sitting) by this
still hearth, among these barren crags, and matched with an aged wife, mete
and dole (out) unequal laws to a race of savages that (do nothing but)
hoard (possessions), and sleep, and feed, and know nothing about my greatness."
There has been discussion elsewhere about those "unequal laws."
Others may have other constructions of this sentence. My version contains
none of the rhythm and grace of Tennyson's.
Glenn Everett
>As I am preparing to teach Tennyson, I am having difficulty with the first
>line of Ulysses, "It little profits that an idle king". How does this phrase
>fit grammatically with the rest of the first verse paragraph?
>
>It little profits that an idle king,
>By this still hearth, among these barren crags,
>Match'd with an aged wife, I mete and dole
>Unequal laws unto a savage race,
>That hoard, and sleep, and feed, and know not me.
>
>Abigail Burnham Bloom
>[log in to unmask]
Glenn Everett
Stonehill College
Easton, MA 02357
[log in to unmask]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 14:41:23 -0400
From: Elisabeth Rose Gruner <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Tennyson's Ulysses
I may be saying the same thing as Glenn Everett--I'd put a mental comma
after "that," turning "idle king" into an appositive. Does that help?
Libby
At 2:01 PM -0400 9/20/02, [log in to unmask] wrote:
>As I am preparing to teach Tennyson, I am having difficulty with the first
>line of Ulysses, "It little profits that an idle king". How does this phrase
>fit grammatically with the rest of the first verse paragraph?
>
>It little profits that an idle king,
>By this still hearth, among these barren crags,
>Match'd with an aged wife, I mete and dole
>Unequal laws unto a savage race,
>That hoard, and sleep, and feed, and know not me.
>
>Abigail Burnham Bloom
>[log in to unmask]
Elisabeth Rose Gruner
Associate Professor of English & Women's Studies
University of Richmond
Richmond VA 23173
Voice: 804/289-8298 Fax: 804-289-8313
mailto:[log in to unmask]
http://www.richmond.edu/~egruner
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 14:45:41 -0400
From: "John Dwyer, Ph.D." <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Tennyson's Ulysses
"An idle king" is appositive with I. It little profits that I, an idle
king, mete and dole. . .
John
[log in to unmask] wrote:
>As I am preparing to teach Tennyson, I am having difficulty with the first
>line of Ulysses, "It little profits that an idle king". How does this phrase
>fit grammatically with the rest of the first verse paragraph?
>
>It little profits that an idle king,
>By this still hearth, among these barren crags,
>Match'd with an aged wife, I mete and dole
>Unequal laws unto a savage race,
>That hoard, and sleep, and feed, and know not me.
>
>Abigail Burnham Bloom
>[log in to unmask]
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 11:54:32 -0700
From: "Peter H. Wood" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Tennyson's Ulysses
It is some fifty years since I last learned any formal grammar, either
in English or Latin, but I would assume that we have here two grammatical
constructions;
First, an ellipsis of the object word which should strictly follow the
verb "profits"; either "me", "Mankind", "the world" or some similar term.
Second, everything following "that" is a noun clause in apposition to
"It", and should, I feel, be prefaced by a comma to indicate this
separation.
However, someone with greater knowledge or experience may be able to
correct me. We cannot all, like the Emperor Sigismund (1361-1437), reply: "I
am the Roman Emperor, and am above grammar".
Peter Wood
<[log in to unmask]>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2002 21:52:21 +0100
From: Valerie Gorman <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Tennyson's Ulysses
When considering matters of poetic interpretation, I was taught to take all
marks of punctuation with a great deal of scepticism and a large dose of
latitude as convention and fashion will work here more often than in any
other aspect of editorial choice.
If it seems necessary to place punctuation in a work, I tend to use my ear,
rather than my eye to correctly interpret the sense. In this example, I
would detect a pause weighted to a comma between the opening four words
(because that has no referent before it so I have to pause anyway to
determine what that refers to) and the rest of the line.
Valerie Gorman
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End of VICTORIA Digest - 19 Sep 2002 to 20 Sep 2002 (#2002-259)
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