Hold on, don't two complex systems that come together make another new
complex system? This is in itself a new and unique CAS. And although
only two CAS might enter the room (although there is often many more)
the networks linked to both these makes it even more elaborate than
that.

Tim Wilson

-----Original Message-----
From: Complexity and chaos theories applied to primary medical and
social care [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Trevor Griffiths
Sent: 23 April 2002 20:17
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: Consulting as a CAS?


I find myself agreeing with Harjinder and Rakesh, that the consultation
is not 'a thing' that is a complex system. The consultation is a
conversation between two complex systems, both of which have their own
time frames, sense of environment and existential reality, some of which
co-incide with the other's.  I find it curious that many people talking
about the consultation itself as a CAS start looking at measurables such
as waiting times, computer data, written notes etc. rather than the
impact of WAITING on the attitude (fractal or fractious?) of one
'system' coming in late into the consulting room of another's!
Certainly, that conversation between two CAS's takes place nested within
a wider CAS, but that wider CAS is not just a physical environment or a
time-limited scale - it is the whole practice as a functioning unit of
the NHS - another collection of 'whole people' who function more-or-less
adaptively. The computer and its (reliable?) data are part of that
nesting system - adjuncts to the information content of the conversation
but not to be confused with the conversation. If you take this view,
then as a consequence it would be OK to use time frames to analyse
whether the two CASs in conversation are functioning adaptively relative
to each other, or whether the doctor is functioning more as a
'complicated non-adaptive slave' to a wider system that has made him/her
adapt to governmment guidelines more than to the patient!

----- Original Message -----
From: Rakesh Yahoo <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Saturday, April 20, 2002 5:09 PM
Subject: Fw: Fw: Consulting as a CAS?


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rakesh Biswas <[log in to unmask]>
> To: Complexity and chaos theories applied to primary medical and
> social
care
> <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 10:08 PM
> Subject: Fw: Fw: Consulting as a CAS?
>
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Harjinder Singh <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: Rakesh Biswas <[log in to unmask]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2002 2:17 PM
> > Subject: Re: Fw: Consulting as a CAS?
> >
> >
> > > Dear Rakesh,
> > > I am tempted to give an answer to the question on consultation
> > > being a CAS. I write to you because I do not have time to look
> > > into details and my answer should be
> > > taken as a naive response. With greater confidence, I should have
> > > written to the seeker of
> > > Truth directly.
> > >
> > > Firstly, consultation is not a system, it is a process.
> > > A system is something that undergoes processes.
> > > If my language is right, the consultee (the one who seeks
consultation),
> > > say C1,
> > > consults the consultant, say, C2.
> > >  Both ends of the process C1 and C2 are complex systems, because
> > > the degrees of freedom in each case are practically infinite.
> > > But it is possible that we are talking about a precise problem
with a
> > > limited
> > > number of degrees of freedom, for instance I (C1) have $100 and I
have
a
> > > choice to
> > > go to a theatre or to indulge in a five star dinner. If I consult
> > > the radio (C2) to find a solution with only one parameter, the
> > > traffic (whether it is easier to drive
> > > to the theatre or to the gathering of the stinking rich), it is
not a
> > > complex system anymore.
> > > However, if I look for a friend (hopefully of the right sex - or
the
> > > left) who should be able
> > > to advise me on what to choose, now that is a complex system and
my
> > > guess is, even an
> > > adaptive one.
> > >
> > > >
> > > ...........laltu
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
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