Hi Mike
I think I agree with a lot of what you say, especially that full value should be given to 2 x A + 2
(or 3) x AS, and not just 3 x A.
But do remember that this was an issue about league tables and a need to second-guess what the
compilers might do - the point about 'leading' universities it seems to me is that the compilers
often seem to have a limited interest in anything outside the top ten and in particular seem to
apply a litmus test that any data that doesn't show Oxford and Cambridge ahead of everyone else
should be viewed with suspicion (not without some reason, I admit). That's why I suspect that a
measure that can allow a student to count for 360 points without having a single A-level might not
be the right one.
The other reason I don't like the total points basis is that it encourages students to work too
hard. I was talking to a young fellow last month who had amassed 480 tariff points without getting
an offer from anywhere he was prepared to go. He was asking me whether it had been worth his while
to do 4 A-levels as he had (+ an AS). Part of my answer was that you don't need to do that to prove
your ability, but another part was that it wasn't yet clear how the statistics would be taken, i.e.,
how much of a bonanza a 480-point entrant was going to be. If total points rules, there will be an
incentive to take students who have over-worked, which will be bad for sixth-form students and bad
for their teachers.
So where I disagree with you is that this isn't an issue of depth vs breadth. Total points
incentivises excessive volume, without reference to whether it's A or AS.
Hope you're having a nice time in Uzbekistan!
Anthony Young
Director of Planning
Sussex
> From: Michael Milne-picken <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 19:10:46 +0100
> Subject: Re: A level scores
> To: ADMIN-PLANNING <[log in to unmask]>,
> "A.Young" <[log in to unmask]>
> Cc: "O.M.Richards" <[log in to unmask]>
>
> People need to be aware there is a time lag operating here. HESA data on this year's intake will
> not be released until early 2004 to newspaper compilers. So for instance the next Times
> newspaper guide in Spring 2003 will only be able to use 2001-02 data on the old A level points
> score. The new tariff/HESA return won't come in until the 2004 guides. Clearly each compiler
> will have to decide which total to calculate - and they have plenty of time to think about it.
> The Times compilers are meeting in October - I won't be there but I've referred the question to
> them.
>
> Needless to say I'm sure debates will emerge between allegedly 'leading' and allegedly 'not so
> leading' universities - and differing advice will be forthcoming! Any way, I think entry
> qualifications taken before admission to programmes and for which the university is not
> responsible being used as a proxy for quality of the programme at the university is a remarkably
> silly thing for supposedly intelligent people to advocate - 'value added' is what should be
> measured - but if someone is going to use solely entry grades, then my own preference would be to
> argue for the lesser evil TOTALTS field to be used.
>
> I doubt if any university is admitting **young** entrants to **degree** courses solely on the
> basis of AS rather than A2 qualifications, degree entry has always been defined on the basis of
> 'minimum 2 A levels or equivalent level', so I think your hypothetical case is unlikely to apply.
> On the other hand, AS points may be a perfectly valid entry measure on top of two A2s for a
> young degree entrant or for a sub-degree qualification or for a mature student, where breadth
> might be more relevant.
>
> <hard hat on - political broadcast coming>
> On the policy side, personally I'm rather annoyed that UCAS and the majority of the HE system's
> valiant attempts to broaden the base of entry to HE are undermined by selective use of
> qualifications by a few self-styled 'leading' institutions. I thought the current debate about
> baccalaureate rather than A level was about the strength of breadth over depth? Certainly every
> other system in the world, including those more economically advanced, use a system that has more
> respect for breadth. Hopefully a few heads will roll as a result of the recent debacle and we
> can get a rethink on a better and less elite system of 16-18 qualifications.
>
> Mike
>
> >>> A. Young <[log in to unmask]> 26 September 2002 18:33:45 >>>
> Hi Mike
>
> Thanks for the advice to look at those web pages, but if I have read them correctly, none of the
> HESA fields referred to contains the data that league table compilers should use.
>
> Most sensibly, they should take either the tariff points from the best 12 non-duplicated units of
> A
> levels and 6 non-duplicated any units, or the tariff points from the best 12 non-duplicated units
> of
> A levels and 9 non-duplicated any units - since most leading universities are assessing
> applicants
> on one or both of those two measures. HESA provides neither of these.
>
> The closest that HESA comes is the TOTALTS, which gives the tariff points from *all*
> non-duplicated
> units - but in extreme cases this can give such an excessive weighting to 'breadth' as to be
> almost
> useless. A candidate with six AS levels all grade A would be credited with 360 in TOTALTS, yet
> they
> wouldn't have got themselves ready for HE!
>
> I'd be delighted if you could tell me that I'm wrong.
>
>
> Anthony Young
> Director of Planning
> Sussex
>
> > From: Michael Milne-picken <[log in to unmask]>
> > Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 09:59:43 +0100
> > Subject: Re: A level scores
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Reply-To: "Academic, financial or space planning in UK universities"
> > <[log in to unmask]>
> >
> > It will be the HESA return for 2002-03 that will be used by newspaper and other league table
> > compilers. The previously used fields (23/24) for A level and Higher Points scores are removed
>
> > and replaced with new fields including one for total tariff score. The arrangement and method
>
> 2001)
> > and 02/01 (May/June 2002) and available at:
> > http://www.hesa.ac.uk/circulars/student/2001/01_04.htm
> > http://www.hesa.ac.uk/circulars/student/2002/02_01.htm
> > Annex 2 of 02/01 explains how the calculation should be done.
> >
> > Mike Milne-Picken
> > Head of Planning & Performance Review
> > University of Central Lancashire
> > PRESTON
> > PR1 2HE
> > Tel: +44 (0)1772 892391
> > Fax: +44 (0)1722 892943
> > [log in to unmask]
> > www.uclan.ac.uk/planning
> >
> >
> > >>> [log in to unmask] 26 September 2002 09:08:40 >>>
> > The Times standard population (info from HESA) for A-level scores is new students on a first
> > degree programme(Qualification aims 19-24)aged less than 21 whose highest qualification on
> entry
> > (QUALENT2) is 40 (A/AS level), with HESA A-level field 157 ALEVELS in 01, 02, 03, 04 or 97 (A
> or
> > AS levels or combination) and excludes Scottish Highers or vocational qualifications. Zero
> > values are also excluded as are foundation years (Year 0).
> >
> > David
> >
> > Dr D R Elliott
> > Planning and Executive Support Unit
> > Room 222, Maxwell
> > University of Salford
> >
> > Telephone: 0161 295 4816 (Internal 54816)
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Fiona Robertson [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
> > Sent: 26 September 2002 08:31
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: A level scores
> >
> >
> > New student enrolment here is more or less complete and we are being asked
> > for average A level scores. I am uncertain whether we should be
> > providing tariff averages based on A/AS levels only or averages based on
> > total tariff. I'd be interested to know what others are proposing to
> > do. Or does anyone know what average the newspaper league tables will be
> > using?
> >
> > Thanks if you can help.
> >
> >
> >
> > Fiona Robertson
> > Assistant Registrar
> > Planning Office
> > University of Bradford
> > BD7 1DP
> >
> > --------------------
> > phone - 01274 235080
> > fax 01274 235740
> >
>
>
>
> Anthony Young
> Director of Planning, University of Sussex
> Sussex House, Falmer, Brighton, BN1 9RH
> 01273 678709
>
>
Anthony Young
Director of Planning, University of Sussex
Sussex House, Falmer, Brighton, BN1 9RH
01273 678709
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