JiscMail Logo
Email discussion lists for the UK Education and Research communities

Help for ACAD-AE-MED Archives


ACAD-AE-MED Archives

ACAD-AE-MED Archives


ACAD-AE-MED@JISCMAIL.AC.UK


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

ACAD-AE-MED Home

ACAD-AE-MED Home

ACAD-AE-MED  June 2001

ACAD-AE-MED June 2001

Options

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password

Subject:

Re: Chest pain/ funding

From:

Rowley Cottingham <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Accident and Emergency Academic List <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 28 Jun 2001 06:15:00 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (49 lines)

Well, I have given this debate a few days to blow itself out because it has tapped into a very rich stratum of viewpoint, some
excellent medicine and some great knockabout slapstick, and I think has been very productive.

For those who skimmed the whole debate, it fell essentially into three camps; admit, send home and decide later. In many respects,
the response related to the seniority of the correspondent; more junior doctors would have admitted and more senior sent home.

As per usual with my little clinical tales there is a real patient behind it, disguised a little. However, the patient was seen,
diagnosed with a first episode of angina and referred to the GP who sent her up subsequently to the chest pain rapid referral unit.
However, one of the cardiologists wrote to complain about this and say that the patient should have been admitted initially. The
troponin was a red herring, incidentally; a low CK and the lab not performing the MB fraction should have reminded everyone
that CK would have been pointless; although it is highly cardiospecific it is of course quite slow to rise.

As it happens, I think Adrian is right that this is a counsel of perfection (professor of cardiology/medical negligence lawyer's
mother notwithstanding) and Simon's excellent comments about the risk stratification of the patient are absolutely spot-on. She is
at a low but quantifiable risk of acute myocardial infarction and then of sudden death. The issue that we are all struggling with is
that it takes at least 6 hours and ideally an exercise test to make that decision. The same applies if she attends her GP with these
symptoms, and this vignette suggests to me that the management of these patients is changing and evolving rapidly, and we are
not all perhaps sure how others are managing such patients. It all comes down to a root issue in the NHS; what degree of risk are
we as a country prepared to accept for a given level of medical care? It is the one discussion that our politicians, normally so
loquacious, are noticeably silent on, and one on which they should give the lead. In my opinion, this is the role that NICE needs
most urgently to adopt. In other words, it needs to set us national audit standards which have been agreed are acceptable. Thus,
if Mr Jones goes home and drops off his perch, and it turns out that fewer than 2% of patients at that hospital have done so, it is
considered bad luck and not bad medicine. At present, we have an uneasy truce; if the family make enough fuss, they will get
money. Whatever good that does. If they however shrug their shoulders nothing happens.

As per usual, I don't quite agree with my cardiologists. They want all first presentations of chest pain that could be cardiac to be
admitted. They want all chest pain whether new or not to be referred to the medical team (I'm not sure the medical SHOs feel so
keen) and of course they don't want us to thrombolyse anything.

I agree (like Sam Waddy) that we need to look at all first onset chest pain whether coming to Emergency Units or attending the GP
to be assessed in a 6 hour system, with exercise test and echo. Just as we need 8 Consultants in Emergency Medicine per hospital
we'd need eight cardiologists to deliver such a desirable service properly.

I don't think that patients with known angina who have an attack that is classical and resolves completely and spontaneously or
with GTN should get any further than the Emergency Unit if they pitch up. I think patients with features suggestive of
deterioration should also be admitted as a substantial number of these are at risk of sudden cardiac death within the next year,
(sorry, can't find the reference) and finally of course I believe everything barndoor should be thrombolysed instantly.

Clinically, the major problem we have is a poor correlation between symptoms, signs (usually non-existent, of course) and ECG
changes. Has anyone tried the new Prime waistcoat thing which allegedly helps  with this dilemma? (Rocky, is  your Unit trying
it?)

Best wishes,


Rowley Cottingham

[log in to unmask]

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

JiscMail Tools


RSS Feeds and Sharing


Advanced Options


Archives

April 2024
March 2024
February 2024
January 2024
December 2023
November 2023
October 2023
September 2023
August 2023
July 2023
June 2023
May 2023
April 2023
March 2023
February 2023
January 2023
December 2022
November 2022
September 2022
July 2022
February 2022
January 2022
October 2021
September 2021
August 2021
June 2021
May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
April 2020
March 2020
February 2020
September 2019
March 2019
April 2018
January 2018
November 2017
May 2017
March 2017
November 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
August 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
October 2014
September 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
February 2014
December 2013
November 2013
October 2013
September 2013
July 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
May 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
September 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
December 2006
November 2006
October 2006
September 2006
August 2006
July 2006
June 2006
May 2006
April 2006
March 2006
February 2006
January 2006
December 2005
November 2005
October 2005
September 2005
August 2005
July 2005
June 2005
May 2005
April 2005
March 2005
February 2005
January 2005
December 2004
November 2004
October 2004
September 2004
August 2004
June 2004
May 2004
April 2004
March 2004
February 2004
January 2004
December 2003
November 2003
October 2003
September 2003
August 2003
July 2003
June 2003
May 2003
April 2003
March 2003
February 2003
January 2003
December 2002
November 2002
October 2002
September 2002
August 2002
July 2002
June 2002
May 2002
April 2002
March 2002
February 2002
January 2002
December 2001
November 2001
October 2001
September 2001
August 2001
July 2001
June 2001
May 2001
April 2001
March 2001
February 2001
January 2001
December 2000
November 2000
October 2000
September 2000
August 2000
July 2000
June 2000
May 2000
April 2000
March 2000
February 2000
January 2000
December 1999
November 1999
October 1999
September 1999
August 1999
July 1999
June 1999
May 1999
April 1999
March 1999
February 1999
January 1999
December 1998
November 1998
October 1998
September 1998


JiscMail is a Jisc service.

View our service policies at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ and Jisc's privacy policy at https://www.jisc.ac.uk/website/privacy-notice

For help and support help@jisc.ac.uk

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager