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POETRYETC  2001

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Subject:

Re: (no subject)

From:

"david.bircumshaw" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Poetryetc provides a venue for a dialogue relating to poetry and poetics <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 18 Dec 2001 12:32:14 -0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (197 lines)

> He and David had a
> well-tempered exchange this evening, despite often being at loggerheads
> recently, and however sharp or harsh I've found quite a few of David's
posts
> to be, with a much rougher tone and tenor than is usual for him, it never
> occurred to me to challenge his presence on the list or suggest that he
vote
> with his feet if he didn't like the fact that there's a large American
> presence on it, say. Same with Lawrence, who doesn't exactly mince his
> words!

If there was a rough tone in my latter posts it was down to the unholy
lateness of the hour, Candice. Like I almost everyone else, I too didn't
notice the 'towers of evil' post either, but it wasn't so much Fred's anger
at that I was taking issue with, nor do I object to the presence of
Americans on this list.

What did concern me was Fred's endorsement of some odd elements in Dominic's
post. I've read that latter about five times now, and it seems to me that it
is (whether consciously or not) perpetuating one of the hoariest
conservative myths of all: that people are naturally evil and therefore need
to be curbed, by the force of law and the force of 'hard-edged' economic
realities.
That telling word 'determinism' was lodged in Dom's post.

Now I have a simple take on these (this, you know, is one of the reasons
poets need to be 'stupid'). People are neither intrinsically good nor evil,
they are equally capable of either potentiality, just as the fabric of
reality itself is not a hard-edged structure but a quantum flux of perpetual
possibilities. After the wave has been collapsed, then the Myth of
Inevitability can impersonate reality, but the not-yet is always brimming
with alternates, other births, as it were, that can dissolve these stone
superstructures.

One only has to have a little experience of work at the bottom of these
structures to know that below the supposed hard truths of power and
economics the reality is continual chaos. Economies, societies, work in
_spite_ of the Fables of Necessity preached by the Financial Friars, not
_because_ of them.

Best

Dave



David Bircumshaw

Leicester, England

Home Page

A Chad's Alphabet

Painting Without Numbers

www.paintstuff.20m.com/index.htm

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Candice Ward" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 6:59 AM
Subject: Re: (no subject)


> Yeah, I hear what you're saying, Alison, and I found the feminist
> overgeneralizing in Fred's first post today hard to take, but I can still
> sympathize with him on the "towers of evil" post. They're each issues on
> which any of us may or may not be in sympathy, but neither one constitutes
> everything there is to be known or said of a person, whichever way those
> views shake down. Fred's been a participant on this list for several
years,
> as I recall, and he's often made smart contributions to threads as well as
> posted a number of interesting poems. His views and strong feelings on
> recent events have certainly led to some posts that were harsher than
usual,
> but that's been the case with a number of listees during this period, and
it
> doesn't seem like the whole story on any of them. Fred himself doesn't
seem
> to be generalizing the particular line on those events that he finds
> particularly obnoxious to the list as a whole, but only to a certain
> faction. If he objects strongly to what they've been saying in posts, that
> doesn't necessarily make him a bigot, does it, or his posts abusive
> (personally, I mean), however harsh they may be? He and David had a
> well-tempered exchange this evening, despite often being at loggerheads
> recently, and however sharp or harsh I've found quite a few of David's
posts
> to be, with a much rougher tone and tenor than is usual for him, it never
> occurred to me to challenge his presence on the list or suggest that he
vote
> with his feet if he didn't like the fact that there's a large American
> presence on it, say. Same with Lawrence, who doesn't exactly mince his
> words!
>
> For myself, I'd hate to see any of them leave the list and would miss
their
> company if they did go, but I sure wish as much as you do that we could
all
> be more sensitive and civil toward one another. Well, if wishes were
horses
> (a saying I've never understood, now that I think of it)--but what a lame
> conclusion they've carried me to! So, enough--
>
> All the best, everyone,
>
> Candice
>
>
>
> on 12/17/01 11:33 PM, Alison Croggon at [log in to unmask] wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the clarification, Candice: I remember the post now and,
> > like everyone else, took no notice of it.  Fred's "sense of outrage"
> > however seems to spread way past a single quote in a single post,
> > which he neglected to respond to, and embraces the entire list,
> > feminist autocrats, commies, Uncle Tom Cobbly and all, in his abusive
> > ire. Which seems not so much a desire to discuss anything as an
> > opportunity to air his belligerent bigotries.
> >
> > And I find _that_ very objectionable and counter to what this list,
> > at its best, is.  And, as I say, puzzling: since he dislikes the list
> > so much (as he keeps saying, and I keep asking) why is he here?
> >
> > A
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> Hi Alison and Fred,
> >>
> >> I just checked the archives and found that "towers of evil" was used in
a
> >> post a couple of days ago on the "Re: Is this real . . . " thread and
in
> >> response to a prior post. I remember seeing the post, but finding it
hard to
> >> parse, although the poster's point in reference to "towers of evil"
seemed
> >> clear enough ("it is taboo to express jubilation over the fall of the
towers
> >> of evil"). True enough in terms of what's regarded as "taboo" in many
> >> American social circles these days--but not here on Poetryetc, which is
an
> >> _unmoderated_ discussion list. I understand and share your offended
> >> response, Fred, but I don't believe censure is warranted. I'm only one
of
> >> three listowners here, though, and I don't speak for Alison or
Randolph, so,
> >> having registered my own opinion--and my sympathy with Fred's sense of
> >> outrage--I'll leave it at that.
> >>
> >> Candice
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> on 12/17/01 10:18 PM, Alison Croggon at [log in to unmask] wrote:
> >>
> >>>  I missed the "towers of evil", but I would be interested to know the
> >>>  context: a concept  which seems not to interest you, perhaps because
> >>>  it might involve subtlety, ambiguity or thoughtfulness.  The
> >>>  "sentimental leftist America-bashing" is your appellation, and seems
> >>>  hardly a fair description of much of the discussion on this list.  I
> >>>  am quite serious: why are you here, since you find the whole milieu
> >>>  so disgusting that you feel it necessary to "pay (us) back"?
> >>>
> >>>  A
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>  Alison Croggon wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>   Frederick, I don't know why you're part of this list, since
> >>>>>   discussion seems the least of your interests.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>   A
> >>>>>
> >>>>  My comments have been at about the same level as others on the list;
> >>>>  they simply don't share the same sentimental-leftist America-bashing
> >>>>  assumptions.  "Towers of evil" - which did appear some emails back -
> >>>>  certainly deserved censure, but probably seemed, in the prevailing
point
> >>>>  of view, an acceptable truism.  I pay back in the same coin others
> >>>>  use.
> >>>
> >>>  --
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>  Alison Croggon
> >>>
> >>>  Home page
> >>>  http://www.users.bigpond.com/acroggon/
> >>>  Masthead
> >>>  http://au.geocities.com/masthead_2/
>

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