Evan

OK I replied regading my headgear request elsewhere - now I can reply to
your reply to Ben.

> I have had too much experience with "rock" to ever consider it solid and
> safe.

Was that just coal or have you had experience in other mining environments?
How about slate, stone or metalliferous?   Have you heard of something
called stability?  Rock recently blasted is going to be unstable.  Rock that
has been standing open for over 100 years has usually decided to fall down
already if it wanted to!

> I would probably drive cavers to distraction by wanting to make sure that
> a place was free of loose rock before entering it.

Please yourself!  There are far more accidents to working miners than have
ever happened to "cavers" exploring abandoned mines.  You may be interested
to know that a HM Mine Inspector said that he believed "cavers" were far
more responsible and safe underground than working miners since they are
used to exploring in an unstable environment!


> They would be angry with me when I insisted that they should pay for any
> necessary rescue efforts if they got into
> trouble.  They probably wouldn't understand my anger that they placed
> rescue personnel in danger.

You are obviously not aware of the whole ethos behind cave rescue in this
country.  Cavers rescue their own kind and do not ask others to go down and
risk their lives. I have been on a cave rescue and believe me that we are
not so stupid as to place our own lives at risk! While I am on statistics,
there is more risk of injury to a professional footballer or someone walking
the street than in caving!  Just work out how much more you are risking a
cost to the country by walking out of your house and being involved in a
road accident (even as a pedestrian).


> Work necessary to keep old mine sites "reasonably safe" will be so
> expensive that it could only be done on a very few selected sites.
> Without profits from ore production it is unlikely that it will be
> possible to obtain sufficient funds for even those few.

What a sweeping statement!  Again, are you talking about coal?  If so, I
completely agree with you.  If not, then you are talking through one of your
apertures as some are safe and will always be so.  Even those requiring some
attention can often be made safe for little work and cost.  Have you been
aware of the Local Cave/Mine Leadership Assessment scheme?  Lets take North
Wales for instance - here you have abandoned slate and metalliferous mines
that HM Mines Inspectorate allow to be used for leading parties of novices
from outdoor centres.  These have been inspected every year for the last few
years and, apart from one minor exception, no amazingly expensive safety
work has been required.

> Even kept up, these sites will contain numerous hazards for the
> inexperienced.

Yes agreed.  But what makes you think you were ever any safer than an
experienced mine explorer?  The environment you worked in was made safe
under legislation.  I am not knoocking working miners but please do not try
this "holier than thou" attitude,


> Additional funds will be needed to properly guard the sites against entry
> by children and naive adults.

Coal sites are made safe by the Coal Authority if not already done so.  It
is getting rare nowadays for metalliferous shafts to be left open as
landowners are too aware of liability.  Many are made safe by the very
"cavers" you seem to despise!  I have lost count of the shafts I have capped
in different places in the UK.  How many old mine sites have you been out to
make safe lately (if ever)?


> Even if the "shafts" (raises, winzes, or whatever) beneath them are
> inaccessible, the structures, themselves, offer many hazards for the
> unwary.  Are the organizations in charge of them posting 24-hour guards
> around them?  If not, are they prepared to face law-suits because they are
> maintaining these hazards?  One can't blame mining companies and
> governments for destroying  hazards that the general populous doesn't wish
> to maintain properly.

Agreed.  But there are ways of deterring unwanted people from climbing up
headgears.  Barned wire, grease, locked gates - all have a place.


> Governments have limited resources.  Would anyone advocate spending money
> to preserve mine sites which should be spent on medicare, the military, or
> any other NECESSARY program.

Sorry but you are not aware of how governments slice up the cake.  Money
that goes towards things like preserving mine sites has already been
allocated to heritage projects.  If we don't spend it then it ends up
preserving some posh opera house.  It is not a case of robbing the NHS as
the budgets have already been agreed.  Anyway - to be honest I would rather
preserve some of our mining heritage than have our tax money spent
pretending we are a world policeman by sending our troops all over the
place.


> Those who wish to preserve these sites must be prepared to pay the bills.

I'm sorry but you are insulting the hundreds of mining historians who are
ALREADY paying these bills either through subscriptions, donations or
thousands of hours of voluntary labour.  Please check your facts before you
engage your mouth.


> Peter made a very valid point when he pointed out that many of the
> interested societies have played their own part in destroying material, or
> at least, putting it out of the reach of archaeologists. Do these people
> really understand what it is that they are trying to preserve?  When they
> attempt to introduce a concept of the miner as some kind of hero, I find
> it most naive.

Agreed about 15 few years ago the emphasis was on stripping artifacts out of
mines as there was a fear that the entrances would be blown in.  I have got
to hold my hand up and admit that I was as guilty as anyone over this.  Now
too many of these are lying unseen in museum stores or people's homes or
even been thrown away.  Now hopefully, with the impact of NAMHO and
guidelines, most people prefer to leave things in situ.  Well I have got to
admit that I have yet to find any mining society who have tried to present
miners as heros.  It is usually newspapers that try that.  Brave men - yes.
In most cases forced to work in mines as there was nothing else (like my
family too - you do not have a monopoly on that!).


> We have no respect for people who go into dangerous places for simple
> excitement.  We had all the excitement we needed without looking for it.

Wow I haven't heard that argument for a while!  So by your argument Everest
would be unclimbed, nobody would have gone into space, etc, etc.  We could
all be content with gardening and stamp collecting!  You hypocrite!  What
makes you think we are all excitement seekers!  Lots of us explore to find
things out, survey, etc.  If I want excitement I can take up bungee jumping.

I am sorry Evan but you are one of the kind I really detest.  You attack
people trying to be positive by your mealy mouthed comments.  And what is
with all the "WE"?  Are you the self-appointed spokesman for all working
miners?  Believe me I know lots who would disagree with you.  Enough.  I am
in danger of becoming li.ke you and if that ever happened then I would look
for the nearest headgear to jump off (if any were left for me!!).


Adrian

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