JiscMail Logo
Email discussion lists for the UK Education and Research communities

Help for GENDER-RELIGION Archives


GENDER-RELIGION Archives

GENDER-RELIGION Archives


GENDER-RELIGION@JISCMAIL.AC.UK


View:

Message:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Topic:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

By Author:

[

First

|

Previous

|

Next

|

Last

]

Font:

Proportional Font

LISTSERV Archives

LISTSERV Archives

GENDER-RELIGION Home

GENDER-RELIGION Home

GENDER-RELIGION  2000

GENDER-RELIGION 2000

Options

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Subscribe or Unsubscribe

Log In

Log In

Get Password

Get Password

Subject:

re Mary Daly

From:

Shan <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Forum for the discussion of gender related to the study and practice of religion <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Mon, 20 Nov 2000 17:39:16 -0000

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (138 lines)

> Had it been standing up to the establishment on account of her
religion that
> cost Mary Daly her job, I would  sympathize greatly.
> She has become a hero(ine) to many feminists, but the mystique
that
> surrounds her has also covered up her failings in her campaign.
If women
> want recognition, they are not going to get it by attacking men
> indiscriminately.

I would agree with this as long as the word "indiscriminately" is
heavily emphasized. Attacking men is precisely what we are doing
since we are taking away their traditional power structure and it
is well not to fudge that - except when negotiating with male
dominated committees!!
Men who resist us are not being silly, or unintelligent, blind,
or even especially malicious - though some are all those things
as some women are too. In the main men resist us from a natural
self interest.
Dominance is a great deal of the time, delicious! a major
motivator of our species, for both genders and all ages. Equality
is unstable and fragile. Pretending otherwise gets us
disillusioned of our illusions and therefore saddened.

We may feel as I do that the current inflated power structures
men hold are poisonous to them (the corruption of power) as they
are also damaging to women, so therefore they stand to gain
immensely by a new choice of masculinities. But my thinking this
slips over into an insufferable maternal "for your own good" from
a man's point of view. I can entirely understand and respect men
who grasp the power they are born into and are utterly or
partially reluctant to let go of it. Why shouldn't they be? If I
work for my best options as a woman so do they as men.

When I find it necessary to attack men I try to do it as a
considered choice, a necessity. This is not in the main because I
feel I "must" be nice to them, or listen to them, but because
it's more effective to discriminate whether aggression will get
me what I want, or not.
(When I listen to men, which I do a lot, it is from individual
interest or a more detached interest in how masculinity operates,
not because of any principle that bears on me as an "ought.")
Sometimes it's sad and painful to attack a man/men because I like
or respect the man/ men, or I can see that he/they have not
considered the area much so it's a great shock to them to be
attacked. Nevertheless my self interest can require it at times
when explanation and patience just doesn't work.
Sometimes by contrast it's sheer pleasure to invoke the warrior
and crash fiercely into the fray using every last atom of my
female savagery.
Perhaps just because I know I can do this if I wish, my usual
approach to men is actually very gentle! I am the devoted wife,
and mother of a son after all, and I find some of the men in my
faith community deeply inspiring as "men of the Goddess."

But once years ago, like Mary Daly, I was more often anti-men. I
also in the '70s defended manhating as a valid feminist stance
and I still do. Feminist anger is life affirming and energising.
As long as it moves fairly soon into action and does not halt in
obsession it's a healthy realistic reaction to patriarchy, and
normally processes onwards to a milder stance over the years as
one grows in personal power.
Separatism is a powerful warning to men that they cannot have
access to females unless they behave better. Your girlfriend/
wife might join Them! so we need separatist women as political
warnings if for no other reason.

I think Daly is a fascinating study, necessarily viewed in her
historical context. When she began her work, and for much of its
formal duration in academia, it was unheard of for women to meet
together and share ideas. It was unknown for female concerns to
be seen as primary, important, serious. To make this vital thing
happen she had to go far beyond the polite discussion mode. She
did it and achieved a great deal from which we now benefit.
She also used the persona of "star" "fighting revolutionary" etc
to good effect, both very contradictory of polite womanly modes,
but with unwelcome side effects. When I met her mid 80s she was
utterly flown on the passion of her passage. Her arrogance was
complete in not acknowledging prior work by women who had gone
before her, (Gould Davis/ Starhawk/ Christ & Plaskow/ Saiving/
Solanas etc ) something I found far more of concern than merely
being rude and difficult with men.

If we are exploring the full capacities of our selves we should
not be pressured to restrict ourselves to traditionally feminine
modes of peaceful, dignified protest, or  artificially forgiving,
or indeed compulsively nurturing modes towards men. Women who
face violent attack are hampered by a reluctance to hurt another
even in self defence, which self defence training addresses as
its first priority.
Another way to see it is that if we are to respect men as our
equals then we must trust that they can handle us when we are not
being sweet and pretty. Conversely we can also similarly trust
ourselves to handle them when they are brutal, or obstructive.

Re the anecdote when Daly was rude to a male enquirer, it is hard
to assess w/o knowing more.
Many's the time I've been brushed off impatiently by male
speakers who can't be bothered with a mere woman so I don't find
such behaviour unusual, though her use of a swear word certainly
adds piquancy and directness. Men doing the same either 'fail to
see' me, or answer me with a brief few words of condescending
superficiality. Arguably, a rude rejection acknowledges the
other's reality as a person with more respect than being fobbed
off does.
Then also I would find Daly's demonstration to other women that
we don't have to compulsively serve the needs of males, very
important. A great deal of her work is about emphasizing the
priority of women, which is so awesome a worldview challenge it
leaves little energy at times for finesse.

Yes it would be nice if as a public figure one always had endless
patience and courtesy and held one's temper! Giving guest
lectures is highly exhausting and vulnerable. How courteous was
the context to her just before she gave her lecture? Had a man/
men been aggressive to her earlier?
This can happen regardless of whether we are 'strident' or
conduct ourselves in sweetness, so constant work to be polite and
patient and considerate bring us very much less than that in
return. Very maternal stuff, very draining.
Where do we place her fear and vulnerability in the package? It
takes enormous confidence to handle the opposition with calm,
restraint and courtesy *at all times* without a slip. I don't
think we can ask women to have that level of confidence yet in
terms of how we are routinely attacked and drained, but it's
coming closer as a possibility. Certainly it's admirable strategy
when we can do it.

The reality is human. Constant hostility to her I think
embittered Daly and made her harsh - she has always been honest
about her aims and methods after all. She was shaped in an
earlier feminist time. Who can say that the often hypocritical
way we must operate now in the structures of power is better than
her directness?

Shan
www.ovular.co.uk

Top of Message | Previous Page | Permalink

JiscMail Tools


RSS Feeds and Sharing


Advanced Options


Archives

April 2024
March 2024
February 2024
January 2024
December 2023
November 2023
October 2023
September 2023
August 2023
July 2023
June 2023
May 2023
April 2023
March 2023
February 2023
January 2023
December 2022
November 2022
October 2022
September 2022
August 2022
July 2022
June 2022
May 2022
April 2022
March 2022
February 2022
January 2022
December 2021
November 2021
October 2021
September 2021
August 2021
July 2021
June 2021
May 2021
April 2021
March 2021
February 2021
January 2021
December 2020
November 2020
October 2020
September 2020
August 2020
July 2020
June 2020
May 2020
April 2020
March 2020
January 2020
December 2019
October 2019
September 2019
August 2019
July 2019
June 2019
May 2019
April 2019
March 2019
February 2019
January 2019
December 2018
November 2018
October 2018
September 2018
August 2018
July 2018
June 2018
May 2018
April 2018
March 2018
February 2018
January 2018
December 2017
November 2017
September 2017
August 2017
July 2017
June 2017
May 2017
April 2017
March 2017
February 2017
January 2017
December 2016
October 2016
September 2016
July 2016
June 2016
May 2016
April 2016
March 2016
February 2016
January 2016
December 2015
November 2015
October 2015
September 2015
August 2015
July 2015
June 2015
May 2015
April 2015
March 2015
February 2015
January 2015
December 2014
November 2014
October 2014
September 2014
August 2014
July 2014
June 2014
May 2014
April 2014
March 2014
February 2014
December 2013
November 2013
August 2013
June 2013
May 2013
April 2013
March 2013
February 2013
January 2013
December 2012
November 2012
October 2012
September 2012
August 2012
July 2012
June 2012
May 2012
April 2012
March 2012
February 2012
January 2012
December 2011
November 2011
October 2011
September 2011
August 2011
July 2011
June 2011
May 2011
April 2011
March 2011
February 2011
January 2011
December 2010
November 2010
October 2010
September 2010
August 2010
July 2010
June 2010
May 2010
April 2010
March 2010
February 2010
January 2010
December 2009
November 2009
October 2009
September 2009
August 2009
July 2009
June 2009
May 2009
April 2009
March 2009
February 2009
January 2009
December 2008
November 2008
October 2008
August 2008
July 2008
June 2008
May 2008
April 2008
March 2008
February 2008
January 2008
December 2007
November 2007
October 2007
September 2007
August 2007
July 2007
June 2007
May 2007
April 2007
March 2007
February 2007
January 2007
2006
2005
2004
2003
2002
2001
2000


JiscMail is a Jisc service.

View our service policies at https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/policyandsecurity/ and Jisc's privacy policy at https://www.jisc.ac.uk/website/privacy-notice

For help and support help@jisc.ac.uk

Secured by F-Secure Anti-Virus CataList Email List Search Powered by the LISTSERV Email List Manager