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Subject:

Re: Next Technical meeting - Onboarding new communities

From:

Andrew Sansum - UKRI STFC <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Testbed Support for GridPP member institutes <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Thu, 6 Dec 2018 11:37:55 +0000

Content-Type:

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That's really interesting - and amazingly they are using draw.io which I'm playing with too at the moment. 
 
Thanks 
 
 
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Testbed Support for GridPP member institutes [mailto:TB- 
> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Gareth Roy 
> Sent: 06 December 2018 10:39 
> To: [log in to unmask] 
> Subject: Re: Next Technical meeting - Onboarding new communities 
>  
> Hi Andrew, 
>  
> That sounds like a really good idea, have you seen the Cloud Native 
> Landscape which has a similar goal but from a Cloud technology perspective? 
>  
> https://landscape.cncf.io/format=landscape 
>  
> It's exceedingly useful for checking out technologies so a similar thing for the 
> Grid would be great... I think showing a set of potential architectures would 
> also be useful, if nothing else to help new users start to think in a distributed 
> fashion. Just by seeing how things are broken up might help them to start 
> understanding bottlenecks etc. 
>  
> Thanks, 
>  
> Gareth 
>  
>  
>  
>  
> On 06/12/2018, 10:19, "Testbed Support for GridPP member institutes on 
> behalf of Andrew Sansum - UKRI STFC" <[log in to unmask] on 
> behalf of [log in to unmask]> wrote: 
>  
>     One thing I'm playing around with on the IRIS front is a something which 
> definitely isn't a service architecture but rather an ecosystem diagram which 
> has a range of components - some of which fulfil similar roles. Some created 
> or more usually operated by the community but some just products taken 
> off the shelf. 
>  
>     What I'm toying with then is a set of sub-diagrams showing a range of 
> different use cases - where its obviously feasible to describe the upsides and 
> downsides of different solutions. By doing this we can give new on boarding 
> communities ideas for architectures and also project that we are not offering 
> a single solution that  they have to be shoehorned into. 
>  
>     I hope to get  this into a place I can present it at the IRIS Technical Away day 
> in January - but to do so I think I need to get a couple of days without 
> interruption. 
>  
>     I will of course welcome input or even active participation from anyone in 
> TB-Support who has an interest in being involved in the activity. 
>  
>     I'd have liked to have listened into tomorrow's technical meeting but 
> actually have to be elsewhere in a F2F meeting up in Oxford so cannot make 
> it - sorry. 
>  
>     Best wishes 
>     Andrew 
>  
>     > -----Original Message----- 
>     > From: Testbed Support for GridPP member institutes [mailto:TB- 
>     > [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Gareth Roy 
>     > Sent: 06 December 2018 09:50 
>     > To: [log in to unmask] 
>     > Subject: Re: Next Technical meeting - Onboarding new communities 
>     > 
>     > Hi, 
>     > 
>     > I think you may both be talking a little bit at cross purposes... I think 
>     > Alessandra may be focusing on development and early pathfinding 
> exercises 
>     > while Ian is looking at mature production runs (this may be putting words 
> in 
>     > your mouth). 
>     > 
>     > In going back to the main direction Alastair was taking this and thinking 
> about 
>     > it in terms of the email Dave sent and particularly point 5, I think new 
> users 
>     > will have a journey for any sort of large scale that looks like: 
>     > 
>     > Development -> Testing -> Staging -> Production 
>     > 
>     > The technologies at each level may be different and require different 
> access 
>     > or highlight different needs... which we should be cognizant of when 
>     > onboarding new experiments. Each technology has its strengths and 
>     > weakness... containers for instance work great at all levels in the above 
> cycle 
>     > but have drawbacks (singularity is _not_ the same as docker, from a 
>     > deployment, operation or security standpoint). Running arbitrary 
> container 
>     > user payloads is fraught with risk without really understanding the 
> security 
>     > model.  CVMFS is excellent at efficiently deploying software to a wide 
>     > (geographical) range of resources, it's fairly easily understood from a user 
>     > perspective (just a filesystem) but is slow to respond to rapid changes, 
> can 
>     > have problems with caching etc. 
>     > 
>     > Now I know you both know this, but I think where we sometimes run 
> into 
>     > problems with new user communities is they don't. We need to present 
> the 
>     > technology with both its strengths and weaknesses to allow them to 
> make a 
>     > judgement based on their (not our needs)... I think the phrase I'm 
> looking for 
>     > is informed consent. 
>     > 
>     > Just my thoughts and maybe input for Friday's meeting which I can't 
> make as 
>     > I'm at a Data Centre meeting at Glasgow. 
>     > 
>     > Thanks, 
>     > 
>     > Gareth 
>     > 
>     > 
>     > 
>     > 
>     > 
>     > 
>     > On 06/12/2018, 09:15, "Testbed Support for GridPP member institutes on 
>     > behalf of Alessandra Forti" <[log in to unmask] on behalf of 
>     > [log in to unmask]> wrote: 
>     > 
>     >     On 06/12/2018 08:54, Ian Collier - UKRI STFC wrote: 
>     >     > 
>     >     >> On 5 Dec 2018, at 15:21, Alessandra Forti 
> <[log in to unmask]> 
>     > wrote: 
>     >     >> 
>     >     >> On 05/12/2018 15:11, Ian Collier - UKRI STFC wrote: 
>     >     >>> 
>     >     >>>> On 5 Dec 2018, at 14:15, Alessandra Forti 
>     > <[log in to unmask]> wrote: 
>     >     >>>> 
>     >     >>>> PS CVMFS is not good for small scale groups or groups that don't 
> have 
>     > an established code. We should discuss containers. 
>     >     >>> I think that is rather sweeping. 
>     >     >> experience. Again with LSST and SKA. Former went for tarballs on 
> the 
>     > storage, and latter went for containers. Other smaller groups have similar 
>     > probles and prefer to upload tarballs. Even I who am one of the early fans 
> of 
>     > CVMFS wouldn't go for it if I was developing. 
>     >     > Again, tarballs are very easy to unpack onto cvmfs. 
>     >     sure they are you have to develop, connect to a machine unpack the 
>     >     tarball and wait for it to be propagated. It then requires a number of 
>     >     setup scripts for the job to access. It cannot be streamlined and it 
>     >     requires time. Not a good solution for unstable software. 
>     >     > 
>     >     >>> I know of more than one solution for making cvmfs easiy to use for 
>     > small teams (here at RAL and also at Nikhef). There are surely more. And 
>     > once you have your software on cvmfs it has many large advantages. 
>     >     >>> 
>     >     >>> This is not to say that containers don’t have their place. (Of course 
>     > they work /really/ well unpacked and distributed via cvmfs.) 
>     >     >> I'm afraid this is debatable. Unpacked are 3-5 times larger and you 
> need 
>     > the space for that. With CERN we are setting up a common repository for 
> the 
>     > LHC experimets but it will need policies on images lifetimes, and the 
>     > registries again offer a directness CVMFS doesn't and which during 
>     > development is necessary. 
>     >     > But most of the space is de-duplicated so shared between images, 
> and it 
>     > will be a rare job that actually access every file in a container. 
>     >     that's why we are setting up a common repository at CERN with the 
> CVMFS 
>     >     devs specifically working on getting the images from docker, but as I 
>     >     said different workflows might still need the registries. 
>     > 
>     >     cheers 
>     >     alessandra 
>     > 
>     > 
>     > 
>     >     > 
>     >     > —Ian 
>     >     > 
>     >     > 
>     >     >> cheers 
>     >     >> alessandra 
>     >     >>> —Ian 
>     >     >>> 
>     >     >>> 
>     >     >>> 
>     >     >>>> On 05/12/2018 14:11, Alessandra Forti wrote: 
>     >     >>>>> Hi Alastair, 
>     >     >>>>> 
>     >     >>>>> On 05/12/2018 13:07, Alastair Dewhurst wrote: 
>     >     >>>>>> Hi All 
>     >     >>>>>> 
>     >     >>>>>> Sorry for the late reminder but I was waiting for Dave B email 
> (To 
>     > Grid or not to Grid?) to be sent round. 
>     >     >>>>>> 
>     >     >>>>>> We will have another technical meeting on Friday 7th 
> December 
>     > on “Onboarding new communities”.  This will be in two parts: 
>     >     >>>>>> 1) I will start with a description of the plans for the Tier-1 to 
>     > provide direct batch system access for (some) new communities.  The 
>     > intention is that this would introduce them to some of the aspects of the 
>     > Grid (e.g. CVMFS) but still keep it easily accessible.  If the requirements 
> of 
>     > the VO grow then we would move them towards using the GridPP DIRAC 
>     > instance.  The Tier-1 is obviously not the only site that can onboard new 
>     > communities and often the site that the VO contact is based is the best 
> place 
>     > to introduce people to the Grid.  We should therefore try and align the 
>     > services we offer.   I would appreciate feedback on my plans for the Tier- 
> 1, I 
>     > want people to feel that this will benefit all GridPP sites. 
>     >     >>>>>> 
>     >     >>>>> this is how we did it with LSST. First direct access and then Dirac, 
>     > then file catalogue. I cannot say they appreciated it considering they are 
>     > showing around a "post-mortem" which is one of the reason you are now 
>     > sending this email. 
>     >     >>>>> 
>     >     >>>>> cheers 
>     >     >>>>> alessandra 
>     >     >>>>> 
>     >     >>>>>> 2) We should have a discussion about how best to describe the 
>     > problems people will face if they need to use distributed resources.  We 
>     > should also discuss how best to describe the various software and 
> services 
>     > we have used to solve them. 
>     >     >>>>>> 
>     >     >>>>>> If anyone would like to send me suggested input in advance, I 
> will 
>     > try and incorporate this into the agenda. 
>     >     >>>>>> 
>     >     >>>>>> Agenda can be found here: 
>     >     >>>>>> https://indico.cern.ch/event/779045/ 
>     >     >>>>>> 
>     >     >>>>>> Alastair 
>     >     >>>>>> 
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>     >     >>>>>> 
>     >     >>>>> -- 
>     >     >>>>> Respect is a rational process. \\// 
>     >     >>>>> For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason. (U. Eco) 
>     >     >>>>> 
>     >     >>>>> 
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>     >     >>>>> 
>     >     >>>> -- 
>     >     >>>> Respect is a rational process. \\// 
>     >     >>>> For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason. (U. Eco) 
>     >     >>>> 
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>     > SUPPORT&A=1 
>     >     >> -- 
>     >     >> Respect is a rational process. \\// 
>     >     >> For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason. (U. Eco) 
>     >     >> 
>     >     >> 
>     > 
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>     >     -- 
>     >     Respect is a rational process. \\// 
>     >     For Ur-Fascism, disagreement is treason. (U. Eco) 
>     > 
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