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MEDIEVAL-RELIGION  January 2010

MEDIEVAL-RELIGION January 2010

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Subject:

Re: vulgate and abbots as bishops

From:

Christopher Crockett <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 13 Jan 2010 09:42:20 -0500

Content-Type:

text/plain

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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

From: Herwig Weigl <[log in to unmask]>

>>[me] or simply if circumstances happened to come together in such a fashion
as to allow the Pope to play a role.
>> i'm thinking in particular about the circumstances surrounding the
installation of Bishop (St.) Ivo's successor at Chartres.
>> Godfrey (of Leves) was an archdeacon in the chapter, had taken a vow to go
to the Holy Land, and was in Rome, on his way there, when word reached him
that Ivo had died and he had been elected his successor.
>> Godfrey asked the Pope to absolve him of his vow, which was, apparently,
done, and he was (i assume) anointed Bishop of Chartres by the Pope.


>[HW] but if Godfrey had been elected, the pope did just what he was asked to
do: to absolve him from his vow, so that he could immediately return to
Chartres. The pope played no role in the succession. 

yes (at least as far as we/i know).

sorry if i gave any other impression.

>Godfrey could have gone home and be anoited by his archbishop and fellow
bishops.

presumably.

i can't recall whether there was any great dispute about his election in the
first place. 

Ivo's Reform Fetish had raised some considerable opposition within the chapter
and diocese, but Godfrey was definitely a "reformer" and Ivo had been in
office for long enough to make (most of) his reforms "stick."

Godfrey was perhaps not as rabid a reformer as Ivo (few were), but he later
served as Legate for Northern France, perhaps from the time of Honorius II
and, in at least two instances, served as a "standin" for the Archbishop of
Sens:

“the bishop Geoffrey of Chartres, when the archbishop was absent, was
accustomed to be his vicar (vicarius) in the execution of offices” 

--[Morigny Chronicle, quoted by Lindy Grant, “Geoffrey of Lèves, Bishop of
Chartres: 'Famous Wheeler and Dealer in Secular Business.'” in Rolf Grosse,
ed., Suger en question: Regards croisés sur Saint-Denis. [Pariser Historische
Studien, Band 68] Munich, 2004. pp. 45-56.  (which i can send as a .doc file
to anyone who wants it).


Ivo had excommunicated Philip I (twice?), and the King (then Louis VI)
certainly had an interest in who succeeded him.

but Chartres, lying in the county of Blois/Chartres, was not at this date, a
"Royal See" more or less under the control/influence of the king, like
Beauvais, Paris, Orleans, etc., so the king's role in episcopal elections
waxed and waned a bit according to circumstances.

>> so, the Vatican 

> the Curia. 

forgive my anachronism.

>> "broadens" the rules governing regularity and, thereby, its "influence"
over... who gets elected?

> better still: who gets appointed. By such conveniently defined
"irregularities" the chapter lost its right of election and the pope could
appoint whomever he (or somebody influencing him) wanted. In practice, the
Curia (after the Great Schism increasingly The Vatican) had to negotiate with
the princes who secured their own influence in concordates at least since the
15th c.


yes.

what i see, from my worm's eye view in my period is that Rome is appealed to
as the (theoretical) Final Arbiter in disputes --including disputed electons--
with its decision on any matter having some considerable weight back "at home"
where the dispute originated, but by no means being a definitive resolution of
it.  

that depended more on the "political" situation (lay and ecclesiastical) "on
the ground."

a more or less united front of bishops could trump a prince, or even a king,
in most any dispute, and Rome's decision could tip the balance.

but it was by no means a "sure thing" and other circumstances could be of
equal importance.

c

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