medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Dear Maddy,
Many thanks for the additional information, and good luck with your
other enquiries.
Cheers,
Jim
Madeleine Gray wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> Hello Jim (and others). If you haven't come across it I guess it must
> be a new one! which makes it quite exciting. I'll probably put a short
> note in one of the local journals.
> A bit more context -
> The reference is in the will of Hugh John of Bristol, brewer. The
> document is in the PCC probate records in the National Archives in
> London: reference TNA Prob.11/14 (or 36 Holgrave in the old
> referencing system.)
> He asked for burial in the parish church of Holy Trinity, Bristol,
> near the baptismal font (one for Harriet?)
> As I said in my original posting, the testator does seem to have had a
> particular devotion to the Virgin Mary. As well as 3s. 4d. to the
> statue at Margam, he left 3s. 4d. to the much more famous shrine at
> Penrhys.
> He also had some connection with, or devotion to, the Cistercian abbey
> of Margam. He left them 10s., and 3s. 4d. to the work of the parish
> church of Llangynwyd, which was one of theirs. (Llangynwyd had a
> famous holy rood, but he doesn't mention that.) He also leaves small
> sums to other churches in the area and to Llandaff cathedral.
> My comment about 'me-too-ery' was tongue-in-cheek speculation but I
> think it stands up. The land on which the more famous shrine of
> Penrhys stood had been given to Margam to found a daughter house. The
> foundation didn't prosper and the land became a grange. It was given
> to Llantarnam in an exchange as part of the settlement of a dispute
> over land in the early C13. I've always thought that Margam must have
> been pretty fed up when Penrhys became so popular (and lucrative) in
> the C15 and I wonder whether that were trying to establish a cult at
> Crick not so much as a rival as an extra. It would have fitted very
> nicely into a route from Llantarnam via Penrhys and Margam's shrine at
> Llangynwyd and on to St David's.
> I'm assuming the statue was in the church now called Capel Mair (I
> don't know how far back we can date the dedication) on the ridge just
> north-west of the abbey. The general assumption is that this was one
> of the churches which the Cistercians built for lay tenants when they
> started letting out their land as opposed to farming it with their own
> lay brothers. It's in pretty much the same relationship to a holy well
> now called Ffynnon Fair [ie Mary's Well] - again I don't know how far
> back we can push the name of the well - as the chapel and well at
> Penrhys. In both cases the chapel is on a spur with higher ground
> behind it and the well is down a steep slope.
> Unfortunately the Margam well isn't marked on the Ordnance Survey map
> but if you go to
> http://www.multimap.com/maps/?bundle=maps&locale=en-gb&countryCode=GB&mapData=904&zoom=15&qs=margam&moveMap=200,200
> <http://www.multimap.com/maps/?bundle=maps&locale=en-gb&countryCode=GB&mapData=904&zoom=15&qs=margam&moveMap=200,200>
> you get the location of the chapel and the well is just off the track
> to Cwm Maelog farm.
> There is now a substantial well chapel (I think I have a photo if
> anyone's interested) but it's almost certainly a C19 rebuild. How much
> of the original survives I don't know.
> So now that I know it's a new discovery I clearly have a lot more work
> to do! I'll wait until I hear from Christine James and Jane
> Cartwright, both of whom have done a lot on Welsh poetry to shrines of
> the Virgin Mary, then follow it up and post results to Jim off list.
> Btw - you can access the original will on the National Archives web
> site (for a fee of £3.50) - go to Documents Online at
> http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/?source=ddmenu_search5,
> click on Wills and key in the search terms. It will download as a PDF
> file you can save to your own computer. But beware - I don't know how
> politely you can put this in your database, Jim - the PCC online
> indexes are notoriously problematic particularly for early wills and
> the name has to be entered as Hugh Johannes.
>
> Best wishes
> Maddy
>
> Dr Madeleine Gray
> Reader in History
> School of Education/Ysgol Addysg
> University of Wales, Newport/Prifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd
> Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion,
> Newport/Casnewydd NP18 3QT Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675
>
> 'You may not be able to change the world but at least you can
> embarrass the guilty'
> (Jessica Mitford)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval
> religious culture on behalf of Dr Jim Bugslag
> *Sent:* Sat 07/11/2009 8:32 PM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: [M-R] veneration of statues of the Virgin Mary
>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> Dear Maddy,
> This is not a shrine I've come across. Many thanks for pointing it out
> to me! It's now in my database, with an acknowledgement of you as the
> source of information. There are, in fact, a considerable number of
> Marian shrines in the British Isles now known only through such bequests
> in wills. And it is not uncommon for people to have "hedged their bets"
> by making donations to more than one Marian shrine. Small Marian
> shrines focussed on a miraculous image, usually a statue -- and often,
> as you know, a miraculous spring -- were ubiquitous throughout England
> and Wales. Not only were they systematically destroyed at the
> Reformation, however, but it would appear that even the records of them
> were destroyed in an intentional attempt to consign them to oblivion.
> This appears to have worked rather well. Rather than thinking of this
> one in terms of "me-too-ery", you might think of it in terms of a shrine
> that would have served a fairly local population. By the end of the
> Middle Ages -- and well past it in the still Catholic areas of Europe --
> a whole medico-geographical network of local shrines became established,
> to which people resorted, not simply for their salvation, but for their
> health, fecundity, the welfare of their livestock, etc., etc. It is a
> daunting task to reconstruct these networks, let alone put them into any
> sort of chronological development. Might I ask the date of your will?
> Cheers,
> Jim
>
> Madeleine Gray wrote:
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> culture
> > I think this may be one for Jim Bugslag or Graham Jones -
> >
> > Trawling through early Glamorgan wills in the National Archive in
> > London (and looking for something completely different - as you do - )
> > I came across a legacy to an image (I'm presuming it was a statue,
> > though the Latin word is ymaginum and could also mean a painting) of
> > the Virgin Mary described as being 'at the blessed Mary of Creke
> > belonging to the abbey of Margam'. This is presumably Capel Mair on
> > the Crugwyllt ridge above the abbey and in roughly the same
> > relationship to Ffynnon Fair, Margam, as the Penrhys chapel was to the
> > well there.
> > Have you (in your work on the cult of the Virgin and the churches of
> > the region) ever come across a reference to this statue, or anything
> > that could be interpreted as such? David Williams doesn't seem to have
> > come across it. My own suspicion is that it's the monks of Margam
> > doing a bit of me-too-ery! The testator does seem to have had a
> > particular devotion to the BVM - in the preamble he leaves his soul to
> > God and to 'Mary the virgin, queen of mercy' and he gives money to
> > Penrhys as well.
> >
> > I've contacted Christine James and Jane Cartwright to see if they have
> > come across any poetry that could be interpreted as a reference to
> > this statue.
> >
> > Best wishes - hope all is well with you.
> > Maddy
> >
> >
> > Dr Madeleine Gray
> > Reader in History
> > School of Education/Ysgol Addysg
> > University of Wales, Newport/Prifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd
> > Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion,
> > Newport/Casnewydd NP18 3QT Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675
> >
> > 'You may not be able to change the world but at least you can
> > embarrass the guilty'
> > (Jessica Mitford)
> >
> >
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