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HERFORUM  July 2006

HERFORUM July 2006

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Subject:

Re: Rejoinder - Great Balls of Fire

From:

"THOMAS, Roger M" <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

Issues related to Historic Environment Records <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Wed, 19 Jul 2006 11:47:47 +0100

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (161 lines)

All

The original term was, as I recall it, 'Recognition Event' - an event
which involved the observation/recording of archaeological evidence, as
opposed to an interpretation of that evidence.

That is a useful distinction. To use the shorthand 'Event' and then to
think that one can extend the term to mean e.g. historical events (and
in fact we only have evidence for historical events, we can't see the
events themselves) will get us into difficulties.

E.g. the murder of Thomas a Becket was a historical event, but not one
which involved the observation/recording of archaeological evidence (as
far as we know).

More generally, is the problem that we are trying to pin down and
categorise things (the past, and historical knowledge) that are
inherently not capable of being pinned down absolutely?

Roger
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of CARLISLE, Phil
Sent: 19 July 2006 10:27
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Rejoinder - Great Balls of Fire

Dear Neil
I have to disagree. The labels we attach to the monument in a record ie
what we think it is or want to call it, whether house, burial, bridge,
castle or ditch is the 'Interpretation' not the monument itself. The
monument itself is, was and, to my mind, always will be a 'thing'. 

If my four year old asked me what we were doing at the weekend and I
said we were going to visit some interpretations he would be slightly
confused, whereas my wife would probably try to slap some sense into me
and tell me to stop talking rubbish.

Conversely If I said we were going to visit something (ie some 'thing')
Fred would more than likely be excited and ask what we were going to
visit, the answer to which, given his current fascination, would
inevitably be a castle!

I think the recent email traffic on this discussion list has also shown
that the use of the term 'Event' in the archaeological sense is
restrictive. 

I would rather see types of event - historical events, activities (ie
archaeological investigations etc.).

In fact in the NMR AMIE database 'Activities' is the name of the table
in the database used to record 'Events' (in the investigative sense).

The OED (bless it!) gives the primary definition of an event as
'Something that happens; an occurrence, an incident.'

In this respect both Schliemann's excavations and the Great Fire are
events. And I would also argue that Schliemann's excavation is also an
historical event!

What do we think the general public would understand by Events in the
Monument - Event - Archive model? I would argue that they would expect
to see historical events rather than investigations carried out on a
site.

As more and more information from HERs and the NMR is made available
over online we have to ensure that it's public-friendly and as such we
have to speak in a language that they understand otherwise we'll be
constantly pointing users to our FAQ or glossary pages to explain the
jargon.

Also if, as you say Neil, monuments are not things but merely
interpretations then why so we persist in talking about the Monument -
Event - Archive model and not the Interpretation - Event - Archive
model?

As for Themes we use this in 'Viewfinder' to group photographs which
depict similar things eg. Childhood, Crime and Punishment, Bomb Damage,
People (active) and People (posed).

So again let the gods of confusion reign!

Phil

Phil Carlisle
Data Standards Supervisor
National Monuments Record Centre
Kemble Drive 
Swindon
SN2 2GZ
+44 (0)1793 414824
 

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-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Neil Campling
Sent: 19 July 2006 08:38
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Rejoinder - Great Balls of Fire

Dear all,

We are in the middle of a major campaign called "History Matters".  Why
then don't we know our own history?  I refer everybody to the notes made
of the ALGAO SMR Sub-committee Event -Monument Seminar held on 13
October 1998.  All of what we have been discussing was set out at that
seminar, and the majority of curators have been working on that basis
since then.  

Phil asks "If monuments are not 'things' then what are they?".  As I
said in my previous e-mails, they are "interpretations".  Simon asks  "I
cannot see why it cannot be an event albeit an historical one, how would
you classify the excavations of Troy by Schliemann?"  In my previous
e-mail, I noted the confusion between recording events and historical
events.  Under the Monument - Event - Source schema, an Event is defined
as "a single episode, i.e. using a single investigative technique of
data collection, over a discrete area of land".  Schliemann's excavation
at Troy would thus be an Event (or series of Events).  The Great Fire of
London would not be so under this definition.  

The 1998 seminar identified that it would not be possible to interpret
some information to produce a Monument, or that it might be hard to put
some data derived from Events into a coherent, i.e. Monument, form.  But
this is exactly what Ed was talking about in his e-mail when he said he
wanted to "explore *new* concepts that MIDAS Heritage (the 2nd edition
title) will extend into, beyond the EMA model".  I think Theme is a good
starting point for this new category / concept for data or information
that does not fit easily into the EMA model.

Cheers,
Neil




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