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BRITISH-IRISH-POETS  November 2018

BRITISH-IRISH-POETS November 2018

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Subject:

Referentiality

From:

jesse <[log in to unmask]>

Reply-To:

British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>

Date:

Tue, 20 Nov 2018 10:19:43 +0900

Content-Type:

text/plain

Parts/Attachments:

Parts/Attachments

text/plain (442 lines)

Yes to all of your speculating, Luke, about referentiality and how it could 
be used when discussing poetics.  The variations that you ring on that 
concept are equally valid given that neuroscience and A.I. is on track to 
negate most of what linguistics and philosophy has to say about the matter. 
Jesse

Date:    Mon, 19 Nov 2018 14:08:12 +0000
From:    Luke <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Referentiality as contingent

I've just finished a MA in writing, and reached a tentative conclusion
that the referentiality of texts are contingent.

By 'referentiality' I probably mean the same as in langpo, the quality of
referring. My degree was in philosophy, so I feel comfortable with 'refer',
and I suppose I'd paraphrase it as what words, phrases or sentences need do
in order to be true, whatever you think "truth" is (correspondence,
coherence, etc.) about something. By 'contingent' I mean that it could have
been different, or otherwise, as Foucault claims about history; a word
philosophers of science use quite regularly when talking about natural laws
and empirical observation.
So, in total, I think I mean the same as Saussure does in his introduction
to linguistics: a claim that the word "tree" is arbitrary; because outside
our linguistic conventions, which I think he calls "parole", the word might
just as well refer to something beside a tree.
But I might not be asking about structuralism, which has been quite dead
since the 60s or 70s.

So how, if at all, might a phrase like *contingency of referentiality or
reference* be involved in contemporary poetics?

Thanks for any reply,
Luke














-----Original Message----- 
From: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS automatic digest system
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 9:05 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS Digest - 18 Nov 2018 to 19 Nov 2018 (#2018-296)

There are 7 messages totaling 946 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. What would you recommend to someone as a basic reading list for
     contemporary poetics? (4)
  2. Referentiality as contingent
  3. Keith Waldrop and Sarah Cave: A review
  4. Peter Riley

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Date:    Mon, 19 Nov 2018 12:11:41 +0000
From:    Luke <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: What would you recommend to someone as a basic reading list for 
contemporary poetics?

What would you recommend to someone as a basic reading list for
contemporary poetics? Someone that is, let's assume, reading contemporary
poetry they enjoy, and writing it, but perhaps completely lacking in any
grounding in commentary etc., by poets of critics. I'd broadly speaking
call that lack a "poetics", and I hope that makes sense... my advice was
just to echo the little I know:

1. in their own words
2. strong words
3. the poet in the world (levertov)
4. collected prose -- creeley then olson
5. some stuff on poetics by, say, perloff
6. the l=a=n=g=u=a=g=e book
7. then I suppose just criticism / commentary on poetry you like.

So 4 and 6 sound exciting but then they might need the others as background
reading.

Cheers for any help,
Luke

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------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 19 Nov 2018 12:40:11 +0000
From:    Gerard Greenway <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What would you recommend to someone as a basic reading list for 
contemporary poetics?

That is a question you can put to the list.
However, I would get a copy of this (you can get it secondhand for little 
more than £10). Read it through. That will give you a good grounding.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Poetry-Theory-Anthology-1900-2000-Anthologies/dp/0631225544/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1542631015&sr=8-1&keywords=poetry+theory




Gerard Greenway, managing 
[log in to unmask]: Journal of the 
Theoretical Humanities
- Increase of frequency to six issues from 2018 -Angelaki homepageAngelaki 
facebookAngelaki Humanities book series

    On Monday, 19 November 2018, 12:11:56 GMT, Luke <[log in to unmask]> 
wrote:

What would you recommend to someone as a basic reading list for contemporary 
poetics? Someone that is, let's assume, reading contemporary poetry they 
enjoy, and writing it, but perhaps completely lacking in any grounding in 
commentary etc., by poets of critics. I'd broadly speaking call that lack a 
"poetics", and I hope that makes sense... my advice was just to echo the 
little I know:
1. in their own words2. strong words3. the poet in the world (levertov)4. 
collected prose -- creeley then olson5. some stuff on poetics by, say, 
perloff6. the l=a=n=g=u=a=g=e book7. then I suppose just criticism / 
commentary on poetry you like.

So 4 and 6 sound exciting but then they might need the others as background 
reading.
Cheers for any help,Luke


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------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 19 Nov 2018 12:41:06 +0000
From:    Gerard Greenway <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What would you recommend to someone as a basic reading list for 
contemporary poetics?

Apologies list, I though Luke had written me a person mail.

    On Monday, 19 November 2018, 12:40:11 GMT, Gerard Greenway 
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:

That is a question you can put to the list.
However, I would get a copy of this (you can get it secondhand for little 
more than £10). Read it through. That will give you a good grounding.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Poetry-Theory-Anthology-1900-2000-Anthologies/dp/0631225544/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1542631015&sr=8-1&keywords=poetry+theory




Gerard Greenway, managing 
[log in to unmask]: Journal of the 
Theoretical Humanities
- Increase of frequency to six issues from 2018 -Angelaki homepageAngelaki 
facebookAngelaki Humanities book series

    On Monday, 19 November 2018, 12:11:56 GMT, Luke <[log in to unmask]> 
wrote:

What would you recommend to someone as a basic reading list for contemporary 
poetics? Someone that is, let's assume, reading contemporary poetry they 
enjoy, and writing it, but perhaps completely lacking in any grounding in 
commentary etc., by poets of critics. I'd broadly speaking call that lack a 
"poetics", and I hope that makes sense... my advice was just to echo the 
little I know:
1. in their own words2. strong words3. the poet in the world (levertov)4. 
collected prose -- creeley then olson5. some stuff on poetics by, say, 
perloff6. the l=a=n=g=u=a=g=e book7. then I suppose just criticism / 
commentary on poetry you like.

So 4 and 6 sound exciting but then they might need the others as background 
reading.
Cheers for any help,Luke


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------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 19 Nov 2018 12:45:47 +0000
From:    Luke <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What would you recommend to someone as a basic reading list for 
contemporary poetics?

That looks super! Thanks Gerard.

best,
Luke

On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 at 12:41, Gerard Greenway <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Apologies list, I though Luke had written me a person mail.
>
>
> On Monday, 19 November 2018, 12:40:11 GMT, Gerard Greenway <
> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
> That is a question you can put to the list.
>
> However, I would get a copy of this (you can get it secondhand for little
> more than £10). Read it through. That will give you a good grounding.
>
>
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Poetry-Theory-Anthology-1900-2000-Anthologies/dp/0631225544/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1542631015&sr=8-1&keywords=poetry+theory
>
>
> Gerard Greenway, managing editor
> [log in to unmask]
> *Angelaki: J**ournal of the Theoretical Humanities*
> *- Increase of frequency to six issues from 2018 -*
> Angelaki homepage <http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/cang20/current>
> Angelaki facebook <http://www.facebook.com/AngelakiJTH>
> Angelaki Humanities book series
> <http://www.manchesteruniversitypress.co.uk/series/angelaki-humanities/>
>
>
> On Monday, 19 November 2018, 12:11:56 GMT, Luke <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>
> What would you recommend to someone as a basic reading list for
> contemporary poetics? Someone that is, let's assume, reading contemporary
> poetry they enjoy, and writing it, but perhaps completely lacking in any
> grounding in commentary etc., by poets of critics. I'd broadly speaking
> call that lack a "poetics", and I hope that makes sense... my advice was
> just to echo the little I know:
>
> 1. in their own words
> 2. strong words
> 3. the poet in the world (levertov)
> 4. collected prose -- creeley then olson
> 5. some stuff on poetics by, say, perloff
> 6. the l=a=n=g=u=a=g=e book
> 7. then I suppose just criticism / commentary on poetry you like.
>
> So 4 and 6 sound exciting but then they might need the others as
> background reading.
>
> Cheers for any help,
> Luke
>
> ------------------------------
>
> To unsubscribe from the BRITISH-IRISH-POETS list, click the following 
> link:
> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=BRITISH-IRISH-POETS&A=1
>
> ------------------------------
>
> To unsubscribe from the BRITISH-IRISH-POETS list, click the following 
> link:
> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=BRITISH-IRISH-POETS&A=1
>

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------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 19 Nov 2018 14:08:12 +0000
From:    Luke <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Referentiality as contingent

I've just finished a MA in writing, and reached a tentative conclusion
that the referentiality of texts are contingent.

By 'referentiality' I probably mean the same as in langpo, the quality of
referring. My degree was in philosophy, so I feel comfortable with 'refer',
and I suppose I'd paraphrase it as what words, phrases or sentences need do
in order to be true, whatever you think "truth" is (correspondence,
coherence, etc.) about something. By 'contingent' I mean that it could have
been different, or otherwise, as Foucault claims about history; a word
philosophers of science use quite regularly when talking about natural laws
and empirical observation.
So, in total, I think I mean the same as Saussure does in his introduction
to linguistics: a claim that the word "tree" is arbitrary; because outside
our linguistic conventions, which I think he calls "parole", the word might
just as well refer to something beside a tree.
But I might not be asking about structuralism, which has been quite dead
since the 60s or 70s.

So how, if at all, might a phrase like *contingency of referentiality or
reference* be involved in contemporary poetics?

Thanks for any reply,
Luke

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------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 19 Nov 2018 15:56:24 +0000
From:    hardPressed poetry <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Keith Waldrop and Sarah Cave: A review

Hi all
Apologies for cross-posting.
My review of two Guillemot Press titles,*Of And
<https://www.guillemotpress.co.uk/poetry/keith-waldrop>* by Keith Waldrop,
and* like fragile clay <https://www.guillemotpress.co.uk/poetry/sarah-cave>*
by Sarah Cave, is now live on Elliptical Movements.

https://ellipticalmovements.wordpress.com/2018/11/19/keith-waldrop-and-sarah-cave-a-review/
<https://ellipticalmovements.wordpress.com/2018/11/19/keith-waldrop-and-sarah-cave-a-review/>
Keith Waldrop and Sarah Cave: A review
<https://ellipticalmovements.wordpress.com/2018/11/19/keith-waldrop-and-sarah-cave-a-review/>
Of And, Keith Waldrop, Guillemot Press, 2018, £6.00 like fragile clay,
Sarah Cave, Guillemot Press, 2018, £9.00 The arc of Keith Waldrop’s poetic
career is a movement from verbosity to minimalism, …
ellipticalmovements.wordpress.com


Best

Billy

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------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 19 Nov 2018 19:04:39 +0000
From:    Luke <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Peter Riley

I could be a little off, but yeah, if Peter Riley is thrown into the "trash
can of history", then they can take everything that followed him too!

Luke

On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 at 12:01, Tim Allen <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Yes, I second all of that. My poetry arguments with Peter are to do with
> some of his opinions but because I rate his poetry so highly it makes any
> difference in opinion about poetry all that pressing.
>
> Cheers
>
> Tim
>
> On 17 Nov 2018, at 08:57, Chris Ozzard wrote:
>
> Dear Peter,
>
> Forthright
> Umbilical
> Chastened
> Knots
>
> '
> Exterminate
> Moloch!
>
> I just want to reassure you that you are in my opinion one of the finest
> poets of your generation still active today in the UK.
>
> Your 'Strange Family' (12 songs) published by Rosemary Waldrop in 1968 I
> still treasure. I own number 88 of the 250 copies. Without its 
> soliloquies,
> and earthing parodic imitation of Prynnne's 'day light songs' led to JH' s
> oeuvre, it's bathic in intensity.
>
> Your 'Ospita' when in the altruism of Thatcherism was published in the
> 'new british poetry' in 1988 became a game changing experience for me as
> young writer and editor.  These ludic sonnets are rhapsodies on the human
> threshold of pain, their fluidity in mannerist foils are deeply sarcastic
> it took me years to absorb. They tend to the meditation on harm.
>
> My copy of Passing Measures is well worn having been carried on numerous
> walks to read and quiet my agrophobia. I adore your Sea Watches, which for
> me have brought solace in the deepest moments of ill health and are some 
> of
> the most beautiful poems written in Wales. Their absence from Goodby &
> Davies' s definitive anthology The Edge of Necessary is a blunder.
>
> And from 'Alstonefield: a poem' "Red flicker where things leave us, white
> blades / where they advance." "Poetry occupies it's moment completely, 
> like
> heroin, it is deeply convincing, but does it know the truth?"
>
> I love your work ... thank you Peter...
>
> Chris Ozzard
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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------------------------------

End of BRITISH-IRISH-POETS Digest - 18 Nov 2018 to 19 Nov 2018 (#2018-296)
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