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At 09:59 AM 11/15/99 +0000, you wrote: > Richard Landes writes: >[snip] >| 1) what was the "glad news" that augustine brought with him? (1.25) was it >| related to the letter that gregory sent to the king about the end of the >world? >| (1.32) >| 2) what does bede mean when he says that the "glad news" infallibly assured >| those who received it of eternal joy in heaven" (1.25) and later that >ethelbert >| considered other xn converts "fellow citizens of the kingdom of heaven" >(1.27)? >| -- ie this does not sound augustinian at all (of if it is, it's classic >| augustinisme politique -- ie they didn't get the point). >[snip] > >OK, I'll take the bait. I suppose until now, I would have naively >assumed that what we have here is some common descriptions of >the message of Christian salvation and its consequences >(=cliches?). definitely cliches. do you really think that they were able to convert a chieftain and his tribe to a religion so at odds with their current life-style, with the standard version of convert to ignore heaven and hell at death or at the Last Judgment at some point in the distant future? >What is the reason to envision that they have more >specific political implications? I am not an anglo-saxonist, so the >context of this question is my vast ignorance. :-) i wd have thought it was true of any missionry effort where a religion like xnty -- with its immensely close relationship to writing, guilt culture, and civilization -- tries to go to an oral tribal culture (eg africa 1900s). if there are no clear political implications, then it's virtually impossible to convert. and since these missionaries don't have conquering armies to break the olives so they can put them in the press, they are in especially disadvantaged conditions. the passage on edwin is a good key to the political message. you convert, we make you into a ruler on the roman model -- power and wealth far in excess of any of your ancestors. rlandes