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I knew this would happen... I had hoped to weasel out of such specificity by the judicious inclusion of the phrase 'such as'. As I remember More was intending to speechify but received a message via the Constable of the Tower (or some such!) that the king's will was that he 'be brief'. But by that time the mode of despatch had been determined. I couldn't actually recall Thomas Cromwell exactly abasing himself in a bout of positive self-criticism either. I think he did it with a rather bad grace and an 'if...then..'. No sense of occasion. I selected these two because they were manifestly innocent people expected to perjure themselves at the last. John A.W. Lock A quote from Homer J. Simpson seems appropriate: Marge, don't discourage the boy! Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals! Except the weasel. ----- Original Message ----- From: Rosenstiel, Karen <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]>; <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 1999 3:36 PM Subject: RE: deathbed declarations > Re: Thomas More. He did NOT confess to any offense. Rather, when finally > condemned, he pointed out that it was not because of any offense, but only > that he did not publicly sanction the king's (bigamous) marriage. The king > cut a deal with him that if he kept his final words brief, he could have the > more merciful beheading. So More said, "I die the king's good servant -- but > God's first." > > Contrast this with Anne Boleyn's last speech and those of the rest she took > down with her. She was guilty of probably no more than bearing Henry another > daughter and boring him. Yet she and the others gave the expected statements > to justify the king's "justice" and highly elastic conscience. > > And More had the right of it; that is why we remember him more. > > Karen Rosenstiel > Seattle WA USA > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: john lock [SMTP:[log in to unmask]] > > Sent: Tuesday, October 26, 1999 8:48 AM > > To: [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask] > > Subject: Re: deathbed declarations > > > > I have come across a number of english legal cases from the > > mid-16th century where great store was set by what the 'ultime voluntate' > > of > > the deceased had been. Though in these cases its incontrovertability was > > probably more to do with its irrevocability. These statements were > > occasionally cited in an attempt to overturn earlier written wills. > > Equally, many times people tried to have > > last-gasp legacies revoked because the deceased had been utterly > > speechless or mad and out of his wits. I have come across them in the > > equity courts, but am no great expert on whether they appear in common law > > cases. And of course such cases only arise when matters are in dispute > > and > > the stakes are high enough... > > > > However these are legacies and not declarations. I have it in the back of > > my mind that condemned criminals were mindful to clear the decks when > > execution was imminent but trying to pull an example out of a hat is going > > to > > be difficult. I suspect I have seen them in the published Elizabethan > > assize circuit accounts so it won't be a medieval example. > > > > And of course there are the politically motivated judicial murders in > > which > > the likes of Thomas More and Thomas Cromwell were forced to confess > > non-existent offences publicly. I'm not sure how credulous the general > > populace were, but in the mid-1550s when in rapid succession Thomas > > Seymour, his brother Edward, and Robert Dudley sent each other to the > > block > > like dominos they must have had some doubts! > > > > Regards > > > > John A.W. Lock > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <[log in to unmask]> > > To: 000<[log in to unmask]> > > Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 1999 7:07 PM > > Subject: deathbed declarations > > > > > > > Does anyone know how or when the belief arose that deathbed statements > > or > > > confessions are true? Is there any authority for the idea or is it just > > a > > > folk-belief? > > > > > > pat sloane > > > > > > > > > > %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%