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Bill East wrote: >>[i wrote] but is there evidence *from Bernard's own writings* that he had indeed read, marked and inwardly digested Abelard's offensive rantings?>> >No doubt Bernard himself would have regarded Abelard's writings as "offensive rantings", but I take it that is not your own considered judgement on the "Theologia", which is a courageous attempt, however successful, to get to grips with the mystery of the Trinity; or on the "Scito te ipsum" which has left a permanent mark on Christian ethical thinking; or the Commentary on the Romans, which offers in its "exemplary" theory of the Atonement a way of looking at the crucifixion which, while not telling the whole story, has influenced Christian thinking on the subject to this day? >Bill.> Dear Bill, Indeed, "offensive rantings" was my own lame attempt to (not unfairly, I hope) characterize Bernard's own assessment of Abelard's writings. Happy to see that you no doubt concur. And sorry if, by my own lack of clarity, this gave offence. Being thoroughly theologically challenged, I have no first-hand-knowledge-generated opinion, considered or otherwise, of the theological writings of Abelard, as will come as no surprize to anyone on this list. I've always simply assumed that, where there was so much influential smoke there must also have been considerable substantive fire; and I certainly have no problem fully accepting your own pithy, eloquent summary of the great man's contribution and influence. I *do*, however, have something of a considered--albeit ancient, translation-based, and fully amateur--opinion of Abelard's prowess as an autobiographer and wonderfully trenchant, ironic self-analyist. Perhaps in error, multiple re-readings could not shake my happy conviction that here was a man in late middle age coming to grips with his own youthful escapades with a quite remarkable mixture of mature insight and compassion for his younger, foolish, careless self. The young Abelard which I saw/see the mature Abelard presenting us with is at once arrogant, obnoxious *and* brilliant viz. a viz. William, Anselm, and the other Intellectual Powers of the day and, while the mature Abelard yields *not an inch* regarding the last attribute (his own brilliance), he also makes it clear what a smart-alec pain in the ass his subject was to his Elders. Anselm *was* (in A's intellectual context) a smokey, lightless fire, but am I wrong in detecting a bit of sympathy for the venerable old fossil's (my projection of A's youthful characterization, *not* my opinion of Anselm) having to deal with *such* an up-start whipper-snapper? "They cut off that part of me which had most offended them" (mis-quote from an old memory). Thus he sums up the climax of his experience with Heloise's kinsmen, with eloquent, poignant, self-depricating humor. Abelard claims that Bernard had not read his works--a claim which I had always accepted without question. Your quote from B's ep. 92, in the context of this string's discussion, confirmed my belief--perhaps an error--that A's slander of B was, indeed, not slander at all, but the truth: i.e., that Bernard's characterisation of A's theology as at once Arian, Palagian and Nestorian demonstrates that he had, indeed, *not* read (or, at the least, properly understood) the writings which he (according to A) used as a pretext to persecute Abelard. But, I had never--until your post--considered the possibility that the slander was, well, a slander. (I don't mean to imply that this was the intended effect of your post, only that it was my own perverse use of it.) It was in this context that I launched my query, which I ammend and repeat: Is there [other] evidence *from Bernard's own writings* that he had indeed read, marked and inwardly digested Abelard's [to him] offensive rantings? (Or, in your opinion, is the broad-brushed tarring of ep. 92 enough?) >You must decide for yourself how much justice, if any, there was in Bernard's accusations.> I can't. Haven't the slightest bit o wherewithall. Thought I'd ask an expert, generous with his knowledge to a fault. Best to all from here, Christopher (P.s. I know nothing and care less of the "the crude Abelard versus Bernard polemics of the 19thc." and entirely agree with Dennis Martin's eloquent understatement that "both of them were complex, intelligent people.") ____________________________________________________________________ More than just email--Get your FREE Netscape WebMail account today at http://home.netscape.com/netcenter/mail %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%