Dear all, Just a few thoughts for the discussions about Mary as a spinner and also Mary as a help to those in childbirth. The former is discussed in the wide-ranging Kuryluk, Ewa, Veronica and her cloth : history, symbolism, and structure of a "true" image: 1991 It is a long while since I read this book and I didn't agree with everything in it, but as far as I remember it provides a wealth of reference and images to the idea of the Virgin as a spinner, as does an article on 'The thread of Life in the hands of the Virgin', which I believe appeared in Equally in God's image (the book quoted below). As I remember there was also an article about the portrayal of Noah's wife as a greedy and troublesome spinner, in contrast to the Virgin. Both these make reference to the story of the Virgin spinning and weaving during her childhood in the Temple and making the veil for the Temple (the one which was rent asunder when Jesus died). The Virgin was given scarlet or purple thread to weave with; some have seen this as an image of the onset of menstruation. Both these themes of spinnning and childbirth are described in: GIBSON, G.McM., The Theater of Devotion. East Anglian Drama and Society in the late Middle Ages (Chicago and London 1989). and to a lesser extent; GIBSON, G.McM., 'St Margery: The Book of Margery Kempe', in, Equally in God's Image: Women in the Middle Ages, eds J.B.Holloway, C.S.Wright and J.Bechtold (New York 1990), 144-163. GIBSON, G.McM., 'Saint Anne and the religion of childbed. Some East Anglian texts and talismans' inASHLEY, K. and SHEINGORN, P., eds, Interpreting Cultural Symbols - St Anne in late Medieval Society (Athens, Georgia 1990), 95-110. There seems to have been a very rich tradition of childbed talismans, such as girdles associated with the Virgin; several such items are discussed in the letters between Cromwell and his minions. Although now very old, probably a good source for tracking down further scattered references in English is: WATERTON, E., Pietas Mariana Britanniae (London 1879). Both the miracles of the Virgin at Mont St Michel and the Virgin and the Jewess are depicted in wall paintings at Eton College Chapel, for which see: JAMES, M.R. and TRISTRAM, E.W., 'Wall paintings in Eton College Chapel and in the Lady Chapel of Winchester Cathedral', The Walpole Society, 17 (1929), 1-43. Miriam Gill [log in to unmask] %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%