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I agree with much of what Ira says, but can I just demur at the description "Uncle Toms" for poets who now have academic jobs. Charles Bernstein, for one, has done a great deal to promote radical poetries and younger poets since his appointment as professor at SUNY Buffalo, and his own writing remains challenging and thought-provoking. Bob Perelman has attracted criticism for his book _The Marginalisation of Poetry_, which I look forward to reading (and to hear him speak/read at the Serpentine Gallery Bookshop, 54 Warren St, London on 5 Dec), but his integrity is unquestionable for me. I trust there are plenty of similar "Uncle Toms" lurking on this list who agree with me! The comparison with Microsoft also strikes me as a bit glib. Certainly the langpo poets have been at ease with the notion of well-printed and designed books and have co-operated in self-help efforts to get them distributed widely. They have not been contact merely to moan about their own marginalisation or to strike attitudes of radical piety. Good for them. K %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%