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Ken Edwards wrote: <<As though no change effected by people could ever be positive, because the popular will is contaminated.>> No I dont think that at all and i have no time for a rousseauesque idea like popular will - nor do i fancy his idea of a secular religion which some correspondents wld seem to want <<The end of Marxist/Leninism may have brought evils such as consumerism and mafia activity to the former eastern bloc countries, but I bet most folks are glad to see the back of it nevertheless.>> quite possibly; over here they voted repeatedly for the conservatives all i was doing, Ken, was expressing disbelief, non combatancy etc about another icon, the fallen Berlin Wall when i saw it being waved There are fewer and fewer places where they mourn the system you call Marxism Leninism and they are I suspect fairly sad cases. Even in places like... for example Osijek in Croatia or - is it called? - Groszny, smashed to pieces when all the taut / taught stresses were released... no one is going to want to go back... what i do want to do is remember the deep complexity of things and try to avoid both simplistic responses. If we throw out ML, *presumably* we throw out Marx and his take on Hegel and the left Hegelians etc... or any of the rigged interpretations of history and things arent necessarily getting better Long term they may be worse Here we are in the third millennium and the big J hasnt come back and I still can't find a paddle Lawrence %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%