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as somewhat of a lurker too I find helen frances' comments interesting and think such excursions into this space should probably be encouraged by those more active on the list. a little gentleness is perhaps warranted, and maybe there is a lesson here for the notion of reading, since I know from long experience on e-mail that the _lack_ of tone in the text, increased by its sheer homogeneity and failure to even reflect the inflection of written notes, can tend towards a great sense of distance. thus the assumption of nearness that is, perhaps, necassary for _repartee_, an assumption of an acknowledgement of the implications etc, cannot be made in this space. That said I find the attitude more businesslike than anything, although the reactions to both orpheus (perhaps more than justified) and paul mackintosh (perhaps less so, I don't know) suggest a certain tendency to 'bite' amongst participants. I am curious as to whether this is some sort of necassary meachanism for the maintenance of snaity and the ability to work in an arena which is constantly, it seems, unrecognised except in small circles. Such a lack of recognition does not say anything about the quality. But at the same time there is the danger of entering the world that Bourdieu describes where a certain 'social value' comes from not being recognised. 'Success taints' and all that. I must admit I always thought that was a peculiarly british/english/whatever you call people who live here trait until I found it in Bourdieu. but, though these comments may seem slightly neagtive, I do want to congragulate the work of this list. e-mail lsit are notoriously impossible places for 'community'. some of the lists I have been part of have been going some three, four years and the cycles of behaviour tend to be repated throughout the gamut of lists that do anything other than simply distibute information to passive audiences. thus there is bound to be a sense of learning in the growing of a list and I would simply suggest that those active here acknowledge the 'peculiarities' of the e-mail list situation, the need to not assume anything as to how it works without much more than a few months practice. some people may well have such longer experience of 'community'/communication enviroments and perhaps they would disagree with my suggestion. no doubt. and as to helen frances' question as to why, as a lurker, I lurk. mainly because I am, have been for a year of two, trying to dveleop my writing skills from occasional forays and academic work inot a more sustained form and find the discussions, contacts with regard to small press books/pamphlets and notices of dates a way of trying to gradually 'situate' myself within or without contemporary poetry that I find intersting (ie; not just through passively consuming bloodaxe or whatever). I regularly attend sessions of poetry readings in brighton, do tongues, madame sex, etc and the style down here is very different from what is reported though I speak from secondary sources - perhaps to be rectified if I can get to london for the sub-voicive colloquium or somehting like that. The stuff down here is often complete rubbish but occasonally fantastic (such as a series called 'readings to an empty room' which I was the only person to attend and which eventually developed into a peculiar dialogue between me and the writer as we went on train jopurneys whilst he did readings, to beaches etc). that said I am also in the middle of trying to write a paper on wittgenstein and have been for a couple of months now as well as following five or six other lists, some writing lists, and so tend to 'shift focus' as interests rise and fall. ttfn matt %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%