Hi cris, Your message seems a good response to this 'non-existant London school' thing to me. Not a school but a scene or an intersection of scenes. Certainly in the 70s. I remember that earlier in the seventies (earlier than your dates below) Earls court square was worth going to for events -- because Bob Cobbing and Eric Mottram were involved. Just at the point when they were losing their grip on that setup, there was Bob running a printing machine in the basement so that people could join in & learn how to use the machines. A presentation by Lee of Jack Spicer's work, illustrated by tapes that he had, was tremendous. Readings by Rakosi, MacDiarmid, Bunting were high spots for me. I think the publishing situation then was very different with Fulcrum/Anvil/Trigram not centre but having some credibility and publishing some great work. Better than Blood Pudding anyhow. Asa I think is undervalued as a poet, editor and promoter. Having been fed, put up, looked after when in a dire state (don't ask) by Eric Mottram, one ought to mention his total commitment to educating everyone around him. & in modern music as well as poetry. That made a difference. Delightful memory from Fiona (just read it) tweed though, was not the costume I remember, or the state of the brain. Tony Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 12:39:01 GMT To: [log in to unmask] From: cris cheek <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: All and sundries Reply-to: cris cheek <[log in to unmask]> Hi, I'm wanting to masquerade a little with this London School thing. It is as much and as little a false construction as the Cambridge School admittedly. BUT There is some sense in which a loose alliance of writers and publishers in London between 1977-8 (ish) - 1990-1 (ish) can be identified along the sociological lines among which Karlien raises Cambridge classes. This are the distant observations of the participation of one person. They are intended to stir skeletons from cupboards. It's a quick shot. I'd characterise the London 'scenes' as a broadly cheerful, informally constituted, beer-sipping anarcho-syndicalist tendency with scattered residual Marxist undertones. A disaffected avant-garde trace element, neither leading with sense of direction nor sharing any articulated sense of who and what it might be 'in the front' of. Something also of an introverting clique at times, perhaps displaying throws of post-traumatic shock. Pickets around a brazier in a dispute that everyone forgot. A small alliance, the energy of which went into voluminous writing, often given 'in process'. The latter aspect might account for the seeming 'friends tea party' of gatherings. But then it might have been difficult for anyone not 'in the know' to find out when / where gatherings were happening and what might occur. Publicity was produced and circulated on no-budget basis. A 'non-business' outlook (Ira's right on that one). Aside from a brief sense of wider interest generated by Don Watson's sojourn as poetry editor at City Limits magazine there was an over-riding sense that 'doors' were closed - had been indefinitely shut - were not about to open - and that energy was best put into 'the work' for the time being. Others might not quite share this view. But attempts to widen audience, broaden community were few and far between. Excepting that is broadening between and across art-form boundaries and international borders. London remained dark. Residues of liberal hippy idealisms blurring into punk and Goth. Singular 'outsider' or 'indifferenter' projections. Verging on arch romantic at times. The survivalist poses superceeding effective critique, as Thatcher's bite sharpened. There was a serious, commitment to 'poetry'. Readings were often long (one reader for 80-90 minutes or more). Many writers were working on extended sequences or series of interconnected works. I remember a significant percentage of readings involving the use, either for punctuation or ambience or accompaniment or interruption or juxtaposition, of pre-recorded cassette tapes. In the mid-later 1970s there was considerable discussion of and concentration on getting 'better' at doing 'readings'. This was provoked by exposure to US poets such as Allen Ginsberg, Jerome Rothenberg, Bobbie Louise Hawkins, Ed Dorn, Jackson MacLow, Anne Waldman and John Giorno. Post '78 there was more informal exploration of 'performance'. There was considerable friendly exchange between early Lang-po writers and this loose alliance. Several London poets had work in L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E. They came here, we went there. Friendships were formed. I met Charles Bernstein in London in 1978 for example. Work by Bernstein, Andrews, Benson, Hejinian was appearing in London-based magazines then. Andrews writes the introduction to 'Floating Capital'. Many writers were working in or exploring the potentials of cross-artform situations (in collaborations such as Robert Sheppard with Jo Blowers, Adrian Clarke with Virginia Firnberg, Lawrence Upton in International Mail Art, Carlyle Reedy with Paul Burwell, Bob Cobbing with Clive Fencott and John Whiting as Oral Complex and with Hugh Metcalf / Lol Coxhill and Jennifer Pike as Birdyak). There were collaborations and there were books and pieces published deliberately under each others' names, and there were the adoptions of personas and pseudonyms. I'd characterise it as predominantly WASP/hetero/lower middle class/male (even though many might have had a lapsed P). Male bonding through the agency of the writing, rather than same-sexual desiring being the subject of the writing. Conversations might be characterised as entailing a catastrophic cusp between stern and pissed. The period of time I'm talking about begins in 1978 and ends, arguably, sometime around 1990 (there are reasons for this and a similar shift took place in other London-based arts communities around that time). One of those reasons is simply that a book such as 'Future Exiles' had fulfilled the phophecy inherent in its title. More curiously the fringes could no longer hold. Fringes were on the official agenda. There was less possibility of 'outside'. Disenfranchised, poor, homeless yes - 'outside' ? The London 'scenes' (imho) had several axes of influence: - people (Bob Cobbing, Allen Fisher and Eric Mottram). This distinguishes the London pot from the Cambridge one in some respects. Much, though of course by no means all, of any London School can be said to stem from the routing at the Poetry Society and the end of Eric Mottram's tenure as editor of Poetry Review. This is 1978. Mottram's broad High Modernist interests continued to exert influence through a combination of his teaching (particularly the Thursday afternoon sessions) at Kings College, the Kings readings which he curated for much of the following decade and a regular flow of visitors to his house in Herne Hill (i especially remember his chowder). Bob Cobbing, centrally involved at the Poetry Society, continued to provide a generous and generative presence through press, organisations and performances. Allen Fisher's influence as publisher, practitioner, link to Fluxus and scientific research, with emphasis on 'process' thickened the broth. Boundaries between writing and other art form practices are so prominent through these influences it becomes a key characteristic to unpack. Not the time to devote to that here, although i will try if ther's interst. Cobbing for example had been a painter, was a performer working closely with improvising musicians (David Toop, Paul Burwell, Eddie Prevost, Lol Coxhill and many others) had a considerable body of work on tape in the areana of text-sound composition. Fisher was 'facturing' installational objects, making and distributing 'multiples', painting and making films. I would emphatically place an emphasis on border blur and border crossing in the 'London' scenes. - / places and events (Kings College readings, Rasp workshops, Goldsmith's meetings, Orpington day lecture events, SubVoicive readings, Association of Little Presses Book Fairs, Robert Sheppard and Patricia Farrell's Peckham evenings, Virginia Firnberg's weekend at the International Students House and such like). It's also worth pointing out that although dozens traipsed in and out of Kings for readings and semi-open sessions there was no institutional / educational basis in London other than E.M. Academic contexts simply didn't figure heavily, at least not in comparison to each other's short-life houses, the Rainbow Cafe, pubs such as The Moon The Archers The White Swan, shops (Camerawork and Four Corners and The Laundry in Lambeth Walk), converted derelict industrial premises (LMC, LFMC, X6, Chisenhale), galleries (ACME, House) and workshops (such as JGJGJGJGJGJG......'s in Covent Garden). Certainly a difference from the Cambridge set up i reckon. - publications. Some of those magazines which sustained this loose alliance were Angel Exhaust, Alembic, Curtains, First Offence, the Lobby Press Newsletter, Pages, Reality Studios, Rawz, Saturday Morning, Spanner, Talus. The only anthology to date which attempts to chart this territory is 'Floating Capital' and i'd recommend a reading of Robert Shappard and Adrian Clarke's afterword to that selection. Presses predominantly operated without public funding, or sponsorship. They worked on shoestrings, produced low tec books and magazines in sometimes extremely limited editions (like 50 almost to give away). Much of the paste-up, printing, collating, binding was done by hand by these auteur publishers. There was some deliberate withholding of publications from the statutary collections - libraries, some deliberate samizdat without ISBN attributions. Rather than consituting a definite aesthetic (although some did that - i remember getting into an argument with Johanna Drucker in 1979, in Baltimore, about Bang Crash Whallop books which Johanna thought should be better produced in order to 'survive' and 'seduce', the ephemerality and trashiness of which i felt was at least half their point. She couldn't understand why anybody would want to make such books. It's where i part company from her, with the Granary Books editions of 30 only at #1000 pounds per copy going into private collections and museums and so on - - when's the trade paperback edition says i, however downgraded the hand craft might be ?) there was playfulness, disdain (rightly or wrongly folks) for publishing conventions (this was surely partly a vacant pose) and the best that can really be said is that sheer expediency was holding sway. names - Gilbert Adair, Jeremy Adler, Tony Baker, Hannah Bramness, Paul Brown, Paul Buck, Herbert Burke, Clive Bush, Brian Catling, cris cheek, Adrian Clarke, Steve Clews, Bob Cobbing, Andrew Duncan, Ken Edwards, Patricia Farrell, Clive (PC) Fencott, Virginia Firnberg, Allen Fisher, Ulli Freer, Glenda George, Bill Griffiths, Robert Hampson, Pierre Joris, Peter Middleton, David Miller, Paige Mitchell, Eric Mottram, Maggie O'Sullivan, Frances Presley, Carlyle Reedy, Will Rowe, John Seed, Gavin Selerie, Iain Sinclair, Robert Sheppard, Bill Sherman, Hazel Smith, Alaric Sumner, Lawrence Upton, Richard Tabor, Stan Trevor, ee vonna-michel, Johan de Wit ps. these are not recommendations, but indications of those frequently enough in or around these communities. Some of those included here might also wish to deny or dispute their inclusion - fair enough. Others may have been inadvertently left out. Apologies, it's not meant to be definitive. love and love cris ___________________________ Dr Tony Lopez Reader in Poetry University of Plymouth Faculty of Arts & Education Douglas Avenue Exmouth EX8 2AT UK tel: 1395 255418 fax: 1395 264196 ______________________ %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%