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Many thanks, Peter. In 'gacarorum' the 'c' has a cedilla attached to it; anbd 'Gazarorum' is even closer to how it might have been said. I accept Cathars: but Perugia had none. Orvieto was probably their most important Cathar stronghold in Umbria, don't you think? Gary Dickson University of Edinburgh %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%