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Regarding the "birthday" of Mary celebrated on this day, I wondered: the rationale for placing the date of the annunciation (and hence conception of Christ) on March 25 was to give an exact, perfect 9 months from the putative nativity December 25. Now in the case of Mary, which date was fixed first, the Immaculate Conception on Dec. 8, which gives the birthdate of Sept. 8, or vice versa? In other words, do we know which had the greater antiquity in liturgical observance? Monica Sandor %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%