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On Thu, 25 Jul 1996, Dennis D. Martin wrote: " The Church effectively accepted > Waldensian spirituality, since it was not unlike a wide variety of > "apostolic life" movements, including the Franciscans a generation or two > later. But the Church insisted on limits on authorized preaching, as had > always been the case. I would not consider the insistence that the Poor > Men of Lyons follow the same rules as everyone else a "hostile" > reception, but others (both then and now) probably would. The reception of Waldes probably can't be narrowed into "hostile" or "nonhostile" - he was, of course, initially received, and made a declaration of faith, and was allowed to continue forming his "order" [though Walter Map, the old reactionary, paints the reception of Waldes in a very hostile light]. The Pope says, if i remember correctly, that Waldes can go and preach *if* the local Bishop consents. Well, the local bishops didn't consent, but Waldes preached anyway, and therefore became heretic through disobediance [which was, incidentally, at heart the only way any person could become a heretic]. BUT the questions therefore are (1) why didn't the local bishops let him preach his (orthodox) message? (2) why did the Pope let things get to this stage, and not provide a more structured "rule" for Waldes and his followers? (3) how is it that Francis gets to do much the same thing, without hindrance, a bit later on? cheers john arnold Centre for Medieval Studies Kings Manor Exhibition Square York YO1 2EP ENGLAND (01904) 433948 %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%