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On Thu, 25 Jul 1996, Kris Utterback wrote: > > > This ties in with what J. B. Russell called "Reformist heretics," those > who started out as critics and ended up outside, sometime impelled by a > hostile reception. What little I have read about Peter Waldo suggests > that this was how the Poor of Lyons got themselves into trouble. > (Speaking of modern survivals, there is a Chiesa Valdensiana in Rome.) > > tom izbicki Depends what one means by "hostile." The Church effectively accepted Waldensian spirituality, since it was not unlike a wide variety of "apostolic life" movements, including the Franciscans a generation or two later. But the Church insisted on limits on authorized preaching, as had always been the case. I would not consider the insistence that the Poor Men of Lyons follow the same rules as everyone else a "hostile" reception, but others (both then and now) probably would. > > > I have another modern survival, and also a question. One of my students (a > lapsed Mormon convert), was staying with a friend who told him his son had > returned from a Mormon mission in Italy. I don't remember all the details, but > at some meeting telling how successfully the Mormons are penetrating the world, > the leader told how Waldensians in mountainous Italy were converting to > Mormonism "by the thousands". Picturing those thousands of Waldensians > converting to Mormonism has given us lots of laughs, but does anyone > know how many people would claim to be Waldensian today? > Here in the States you get bragging rights > if you have a Native American ancestor (My husband proudly claims his Mohawk > great-grandmother, who was also Will Rogers' grandmother). Is being a > Waldensian in that same class? I don't have statistics at hand (but they could be obtained from the World Encyclopedia of Christianity), but several thousand members (perhaps 20,000-30,00, possibly even more, would sound about right. The Waldenses are fully organized as a church, participate in some ecumenical bodies etc. The story of their return to the Piedmontese Alps in the 16th? century is a dramatic one, often retold. (Euan Cameron has a book on this, I believe.) I think they even publish a historical journal; they have a seminary to train clergy. I think there are organized Waldensian congregations in North Carolina and perhaps elsewhere around the world. Dennis Martin Loyola University Chicago %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%