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Dear Susan, I found this morning, by pure chance, a reference which might interest you. I send it on the list, rather than privately, as your question probably arose the interest of others. At the beginning of the Vita Maioli by Odilo of Cluny, written c.1031/1033, Odilo makes a quick summary of the history of religion. At one points he writes: "Deinde coepit monasticus ordo pullulare, et, ut verius dicamus, reviviscere; quem a beato Helia et Joanne Baptista novimus processisse, et ita per apostolicam et conversationem et vitam, et incrmenta virtutum, et exercitia sanctorum spiritualium Patrum ad nos usque gaudemus pervenisse." PL 142, col.945B. This confirms perfectly what was said by ?? (I am sorry I forgot your name, even though I found your answer fascinating). Given the way it is mentionned in this Vita (with other generalities), it looks like the paternity of Helia and JB on monasticism was a well-known belief amongst the monks of the time. Isabelle Cochelin [log in to unmask] %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%